Robert “Cujo” Teschner, A Fighter Pilot’s Mission Toward Absolute Ownership (#224)

Robert “Cujo” Teschner is the CEO and Founder of VMax Group, a business training and consulting firm specializing in helping organizations build high-performing teams using the same principles and methodologies that fighter pilot teams implement to succeed. Robert didn’t simply study these methods, but he lived & breathed them during his brilliant military career.

Before founding VMax Group in 2016, Robert was an F-15 / F-22 fighter pilot, F-15 Weapons School Instructor (the US Air Force’s “Top Gun” school), F-22 Fighter Squadron Commander, and senior Joint Staff officer. From 2004 to mid-2006, he was a US Air Force expert on post-mission debriefing, the method used by high-performance military teams for self-correction and continuous improvement.

The Cancer Diagnosis that Changed Everything

Robert “Cujo” Teschner’s military career was rising. He was about to become a Full Bird Colonel when he got the colon cancer diagnosis. He was, fortunately, able to catch it in time also thanks to his wife’s intuition, but he had to retire immediately after pinning-on full Colonel because he would not have been able to fly fighter jets anymore due to complications from colon cancer-related care.

That was the toughest moment in Robert’s life. He had to face cancer, and he had lost his military career, something that he had invested all his life into. Still, his mindset, shaped by countless missions and training, together with the support of his family, helped him push through adversity. This ultimately led to the creation of his leadership and teamwork training company, VMax Group, which has the purpose to teach and inspire real teamwork so that teams can thrive in disruption and keep America’s economy strong. On top of that, Robert became a Keynote Speaker and a Bestselling Author of the book Debrief to Win: How America’s Top Guns Practice Accountable Leadership…and How You Can, Too!.

And now here’s Robert “Cujo” Teschner.

Show Notes

[4:13] How’d it happen for Robert “Cujo” Teschner?
[11:35] The story about Cujo’s tribal ritual
[13:11] His attitude when he learned about his tumor
[17:45] How is Cujo’s now in terms of health?
[19:57] On how he introduces himself
[26:29] On constantly pursuing excellence
[31:05] Cujo’s thoughts on meritocracy
[39:41] The difference between F15 and F22 planes
[45:00] Diving deeper in Cujo’s book: Debrief To Win
[50:55] On the topic of accountability
[56:37] “As good as we are, we could be better.”
[1:03:18] Outro

Full transcript below

Video on A Fighter Pilot’s Mission Toward Absolute Ownership

Robert “Cujo” Teschner on Debrief to Win

Visit VMaxGroupLLC.com to Learn More on Leadership Training

Book a Free Consultation with VMax Group

Get Robert “Cujo” Teschner’s Book. Debrief to Win: How America’s Top Guns Practice Accountable Leadership…and How You Can, Too!

Connect with Robert “Cujo” Teschner on LinkedIn

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Podcast with Robert “Cujo” Teschner. A Fighter Pilot’s Mission Toward Absolute Ownership.

00:00:06.810 –> 00:00:27.900

Mike Malatesta: hey everybody, welcome back to the How’d It Happen Podcast. I am grateful to have you here for this episode, as I am for everyone and today I’m fulfilling my promise to you with another amazing success story, and I actually have personal engagement with our guest today, Robert “Cujo” Teschner because.

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Mike Malatesta: Cujo presented to my tech group in July, and you’re in for a big treat it was the kind of phenomenal presentation that you get every so often and this guy is just so amazingly accomplished, but also amazingly.

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Mike Malatesta: Engaging and humble and helpful like a guy who’s willing to just his whole goal in life, it seems like is to help people and people like that always get me really.

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Mike Malatesta: excited so enough of my sort of man love here, I am going to tell you a little bit about Cujo as he likes to be called and then we’re going to get into it so.

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Mike Malatesta: Robert Cujo test runner is a retired F 15 and F 22 fighter pilot he is also a former weapons school instructor, which is the US air force’s top gun school.

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Mike Malatesta: An F 22 fighter Squadron Squadron commander senior joint staff officer and combat veteran he holds advanced degrees and operational art and science and national security strategy and has extensive experience in operational and tactical planning, as well as an organizational leadership.

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Mike Malatesta: From 2004 through mid 2006 Cujo served as the US air force’s expert in post mission debriefing the methodology used by high performing military teams to self correct and improve continuously.

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Mike Malatesta: He retired after becoming a full Colonel due to complications from color colon cancer related care.

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Mike Malatesta: Cujo started V Max group a leadership and teamwork training company based in St Louis Missouri.

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Mike Malatesta: V Max is purpose and I love this is to teach and inspire real teamwork, so that teams can thrive in disruption and keep america’s economy strong, well done with that kojo.

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Mike Malatesta: Cujo is a multi award winning fighter aviator and leader and award winning writer and author of the national best selling book debrief to win.

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Mike Malatesta: which he was kind enough to give me an autographed copy of to write well, I actually won this tonight Cujo I was.

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Mike Malatesta: Reading something I can’t remember what so phenomenal book and we’ll talk a lot about the book today and and.

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Mike Malatesta: for whatever reason I don’t know why writing a book is not hard enough for him, I guess, he is simultaneously working on two new books on leadership.

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Mike Malatesta: The first of which is titled an American fighter pilot lessons learned beyond mach one so cool title that is slated for release in the spring of 2022 and the other book Cujo what is that one called that you’re working on.

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Cujo: we’re still working on the title and we’re kind of keeping things close hold so it’s a it’s a group project that will come out around the same time summer spring the summer of next year okay cool.

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Mike Malatesta: So with that.

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Mike Malatesta: introduction I am getting ready to get started and Cujo I start every episode, with the same simple question how did it happen for you.

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Cujo: Great question brilliant introduction very, very glad to be here with you today Mike and thanks for thanks for the invitation, it was so nice meeting you at the tech meeting.

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Cujo: can answer that a number of ways, how about today we answer it with started with the cancer diagnosis It started with.

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Cujo: A day when my wife was let’s say five months pregnant with our fourth child, it was a beautiful day a sunny day a typical day for that time of year in Stuttgart, Germany and when I woke from my.

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Cujo: From my colonoscopy I was getting ready to give both the doctor and my wife some grief for me having had to go through that experience for not what I thought was going to be for no reason.

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Cujo: And instead I woke up to the news that the doctor had horrible news for me the tumor he thought was probably 10 years old and we didn’t know if we were you know days, weeks or months away from from the end of it all, so I think I think it all started right there Mike.

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Mike Malatesta: And was that your first colonoscopy.

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Cujo: That was my first colonoscopy I was 40 years old, when I had that okay.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah and everything right sort of waiting till you’re 40 that’s when they tell you to have your first call you you’re like me, you did you’re like why don’t Why do I need to go through this I don’t need this right.

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Cujo: yeah ish I wish it was I wish it was that pure Mike.

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Cujo: Okay um.

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Cujo: What is the first time that I had any symptoms worth talking about was when I was 31st time that my body gave me indications that things were not exactly right was back when I was.

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Cujo: A brand new instructor just going back through the instructor qualification course at the fighter weapon school and I didn’t have time to be sick I didn’t have.

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Cujo: Interest in hearing that there was anything that right with me, so I chose not to speak about it to anybody not investigate anything.

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Cujo: And just kind of will myself well and a few months later, things were back to normal.

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Cujo: And then, a decade later it’s actually the second time that I have symptoms that causes me to have a conversation with my wife, which then leads to a let’s go talk to the Doc.

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Cujo: Multiple doctors saying you’re young you’re fit you’re fine my wife, saying that doesn’t pass muster for me.

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Cujo: And ultimately, with a with a friend of mine, who was a doctor my wife conspired with WHO recommended that I go in and get this thing checked out.

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Cujo: turns out that my wife was right my doctor friend that she conspired with was right and I was almost almost horribly wrong so i’d start there Mike i’d say that’s that’s where it all began.

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Mike Malatesta: Okay, so if that’s how it happened.

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Mike Malatesta: What happened and.

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Cujo: Then the question is what.

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Cujo: What are we talking about yeah you know before that I used to fancy myself as a fighter pilot I really thought I existed to fly fighters to defend our nation, I thought that was my whole reason for being.

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Cujo: And I was pretty good at what I did I really enjoyed the flying part of what I did, especially as a younger guy I thought that was just the best.

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Cujo: answer was the biggest disruption that I had been through in my life and for sure, for my family, it was a tremendous disruption.

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Cujo: And we went from and i’m looking over here in the corner of my office we just moved and we’re setting things up over here i’ve got my congratulations promotion placard that was put up for all six of us that were promoted to bird colonel, at the same time in instacart.

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Cujo: You know that happens, right after the diagnosis, I get invited to go back into fly F 22 is again this time to eventually become a senior leader.

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Cujo: The career is going exactly on the right trajectory the families well everything’s rockin and rollin and then we get this news and it collapses, the entire thing can’t take the new job can’t fly.

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Cujo: The surgeon is convinced, because we have to remove my lower colon that if I try to pull nine times the force of gravity i’m going to rip apart from the inside, that doesn’t sound too sexy to me.

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Cujo: If I can’t do what it is that i’m trying to do, and if there’s potential to be getting sick again what we do, do we stay in the air force do we retire with chose to retire early I took a demotion I went from being a.

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Cujo: Full bird colonel, as we call them to a lieutenant Colonel and retirement became to St Louis, which is where I have family to have some support structure in case I get sick.

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Cujo: And didn’t know what to do, I mean really like it was one of these things where you’re comfortably in the midst of your zone.

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Cujo: And then something comes in, from left field, arguably, you know could have been caught earlier but nonetheless wasn’t expecting to get this kind of a diagnosis.

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Cujo: You go immediately into surgery immediately into your body does not function, the way that it’s designed to you’re stuck you’ve got to be close to a bathroom at all times and we’ll leave it at that.

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Cujo: Now, what do you do, how do you how do you provide, how do you take care of of your family, how do you find joy in life.

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Cujo: All of those were the challenges that we had, and this was in the 2016 time from 2015 2016 when I retired and we, we have to search for our core why and figure out in my case, who am I in our case, as a family who are we, and how are we going to go out there and win, and I remember.

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Cujo: When my wife and I walked out of the doctor’s office that that late morning, and she took garg I remember being just just famished I was starving.

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Cujo: You know, because of all the prep for the cooler mascot be you know I haven’t eaten in a little while my wife was pregnant, she was hungry, the first thing we did on the heels of.

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Cujo: Of this terrific diagnosis was we went to the to the bottom floor of the building in which the.

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Cujo: The investigation whatever you wanna call the call and asked me to place in an ordered lunch alright, so we had a late breakfast or lunch and.

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Cujo: And then we started talking and again it was a beautiful day I mean this, I think it was like October, no way to say it was more whatever.

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Cujo: It was march of 2014 and it should have been just Gray and nasty was sunny and beautiful and I remember, we had a very matter of fact, talked my wife and I did, and I distinctly recall saying to her the story just got better.

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Cujo: And she’s like excuse me, and like another story just got better like you know it’s easy when everything’s going smooth like that.

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Cujo: It doesn’t take much to be able to move out with that, but when when everything falls apart.

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Cujo: You know it’s your choice as to whether it’s you’re going to allow it to collapse you or whether you’re going to try and find some way to to make it through and in the fighter domain, you see pictures behind me of a 15th and maybe an F 22 I can’t remember.

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Cujo: we’re used to disruption we’re very much expecting on any mission, the mission and not to go as the way we we had it planned.

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Cujo: And so, our kind of core ethic is the story get better that we’re going to be able to tell on Friday night at the at the bar and it’s just up to us.

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Cujo: To to kind of guide this new version of the story to a successful outcome and that was our That was our ethic and i’ll stop there, because that’s a lot Mike that’s a lot but provide some context, for you know why I chose to start today’s conversation there.

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Mike Malatesta: Okay, and I had some.

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Mike Malatesta: Questions off of that, but the thing that you called me with at the end there, that I couldn’t forget, is the bar thing because, if I remember from your talk, you talked about the bar.

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Mike Malatesta: thing in the air force where.

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Mike Malatesta: I think he said the rule in the bar was that it had to be whatever you said had to be at least 10% true.

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Cujo: that’s right.

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Cujo: that’s right.

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Mike Malatesta: So now you’ve got something that’s 100% true that people are going to hear and wish it was only 10% true.

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Cujo: yeah that’s that’s right.

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Cujo: that’s exactly right, so what you’re referencing Mike is is our is our tribal ritual of roll calls, we have roll calls every Friday night.

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Cujo: And we get together as a tribe fighter pilot tribe, and we tell stories from the week in the in the ethic, is one of.

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Cujo: joy and celebration, I mean we’re we’re fired up to have made it to the end of another successful week of flying.

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Cujo: we’re there to have a good time into into enjoy each other’s company to let the stress kind of wash away from the week and to and to celebrate and also learn.

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Cujo: And the stories that we tell it to be at least 10% true so they’re hilarious until you get to a story that needs to be 100% true because we’re all going to learn from it every kind of understands hey, this is one of those kinds of stories.

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Cujo: And what can we learn from it, and I think, in fact, I would say that the roll call story tied to this one is a necessary one for everybody to learn, because we’re not indestructible.

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Cujo: And we can’t will ourselves to health, we do have to pay attention to everybody’s telling us there’s a component there of learning that That certainly applies to all of us yeah.

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Nice.

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Mike Malatesta: So the doctor then finds this tumor gives you the prognosis did you.

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Mike Malatesta: I mean you said you went down, you had you had this breakfast lunch brunch whatever and then you said to your wife, that the story just got better and I was thinking to myself man, if I were you I might still be thinking at that early stage.

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Mike Malatesta: This is just the thing, no, you know they’ll take it out and i’ll be.

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Mike Malatesta: i’ll be fine and not just go back you know i’ll be off for a little bit and then i’ll be back in the i’ll be back teaching i’ll be back flying i’ll be back doing all the things that I was built to do, but it seems like you might have.

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Mike Malatesta: All you know already seen recognize that that might not be a possibility or wouldn’t be.

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Cujo: Not quite there.

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Cujo: In fact, I had exactly that attitude that you just described, like okay fine.

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Cujo: Whatever we need to do we’re going to we’re going to rip this out we’re going to clean things up and i’m going to get right back into it, because i’m not.

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Cujo: i’m not stopping what it is that I like doing and we went through the next four days was like a big sine wave of emotions for both my wife and I there was time to Malaysian like hey we got this thing.

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Cujo: There was times of Oh, you know this thing has gotten me and we kind of went went back and forth a little bit, but I distinctly remember.

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Cujo: On day four post diagnosis.

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Cujo: Just being overwhelmed with the with the notion, this might be it like you know this.

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Cujo: week we may we may have we may be coming to the end and landing from our last mission, as it were, and that was a bit overwhelming that that that did that sucked all the the air from from my lungs for sure.

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Cujo: And then another point that stands out in my mind, because I mean that just notify analogy like there’s nothing else you can do and you’re totally at the mercy of others that’s it that’s a tough one, to come to grips with.

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Cujo: The other one that really stands out in my mind was the day after my first surgery and i’m lying there and i’ve got you know i’m totally dependent upon others for help and I can’t do anything.

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Cujo: i’m subject to the will and the whims of the doctors and the nurses and I was overcome with emotion there and it was a really positive emotion like it was one of.

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Cujo: Of like relief is the best way to describe it, and I was, I was relieved that I finally had empathy for those that were suffering.

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Cujo: Specifically physically like up until that point i’d always aced all of my medical checkups I was always you know perfect vision perfect is everything is good checkouts fine fit trim healthy.

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Cujo: And maybe not so trim at times the fit and healthy when good enough for government work and all of a sudden, I thought back to a dinner that my wife and I had been at an inn in Washington DC.

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Cujo: When I was at the national war college, we were guests, have a former chairman of the Joint chiefs was one of my instructors and he invited us to come in.

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Cujo: And to to celebrate I think they were honoring Admiral Mike Raven for something and so we’re in this really sophisticated joint like the Reagan Center downtown DC and he’s dressed all nicely and at our table, we had a.

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Cujo: We had a sergeant that was missing both legs remove due to a an attack in Iraq.

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Cujo: I remember just sitting there with him, and you know shaking hands and thanking him for what he had sacrificed and not having any understanding of what that meant is saying the words but not me having no concept of what it would be like to go through.

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Mike Malatesta: sort of like the words you’ve been trained to say to somebody that you encounter who’s been through something.

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Cujo: right and it felt fraudulent to say that, because there is no way to connect unless you’ve been there.

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Cujo: And for sure, and every I mean and all these generals kept on coming by and shaking hands with him and he had he had nothing but disdain for them is like.

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Cujo: You don’t get it you’re not here, life is good for you, you know it’s totally that day and ship guard, I had a small glimpse tiny micro glimpse of what it was that he had lost.

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Cujo: And I was so grateful for that, because living a life absent that you really can’t connect with others and.

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Cujo: I felt that that was a big a big step forward in my evolution as a human being, for which i’m forever grateful and that would not have happened, had we not excited most of my lower colon because of cancer so.

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Cujo: there’s so much good that comes from this, we had to get through those early days.

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Cujo: But, but you know, so we did, and here we are, and and I think that that most everything that has come from, it has been a huge positive.

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Mike Malatesta: So, before I dig into more there, I guess, I need to ask you, you know how is your health now i’m sure people are thinking this guy okay.

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Cujo: it’s it’s still good enough for government work.

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Cujo: keeping things at a relatively low standard it’s you know it’s not as good as it once was, but it’s good enough and.

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Cujo: We you know, have to go in for constant scans and tests and the heart rate goes up in the pucker factor goes higher and.

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Cujo: You know you have enough, Mr eyes and you just learn to deal with it and we’re blessed seven years cancer free this this past March.

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Cujo: went in for some more checkups here recently and they came back good so you know that’s going to always be there we’re always going to be thinking about it.

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Cujo: But it’s also a reminder constantly publicist we are and how fortunate, we are to have made it through the worst of those times at that stage and.

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Cujo: We pray constantly for all of those who are in the same in the same circumstances, because we get it, we know what it’s like as a family, by the way, because it’s a family affair sure.

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Mike Malatesta: Well, glad to hear that good for you, I mean.

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Mike Malatesta: Thank you keep that up okay.

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Cujo: Yes, this is yeah.

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Mike Malatesta: This is your this is your takeaway keep.

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Cujo: Okay.

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Mike Malatesta: that’s right when you were in the in the bio we mentioned.

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Mike Malatesta: You know the air force’s sort of.

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Mike Malatesta: Top gun, which is what you were in and most people listening to this or i’m sure familiar with the top gun movie and Tom cruise and what that was all about and I think most people.

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Mike Malatesta: Probably don’t have much they have someone in their family, who is a fire fighter pilot probably don’t have much of a reference point or Frame of Reference outside of that, and one of the things that.

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Mike Malatesta: And I want to, I want to get into that with you, but I remember when you started talking to us at the tech meeting you.

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Mike Malatesta: You know, because when you get introduced as a fighter pilot and military guy, and all this stuff that comes with certain perceptions, you know whether it was Tom cruise movie or whether it was.

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Mike Malatesta: You many others jack Nicholson comes to mind I can’t.

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Mike Malatesta: remember his name of the movie but.

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Cujo: A few good men.

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Mike Malatesta: You good man, thank you, yes it’s.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah there’s a certain sort of perception that proceeds or accompanies that kind of introduction and you did something very different when you.

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Mike Malatesta: After a similar introduction you came out and in a in a in an attempt, I think, to humanize yourself and disarm us, you asked us right off the top to go around the room and say what is your perception of me or something like that, so what what makes you do that what’s The reason for that.

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Cujo: Well, you know I think we’re we’re pretty good as human beings at.

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Cujo: kind of packaging people putting them in bins categorizing folks creating boundaries and separation points.

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Cujo: Finding reasons to not be able to connect with one another, you know you come from wherever and so, therefore, you must think like this, and so therefore we’re never going to be able to be fully my.

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Cujo: And I sometimes I listened to the things that people say about me and I wonder if I were to meet myself.

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Cujo: Based upon this introduction, for the first time, what I like me or not what I judged me or not what you know how How does this, how does this factor, and I think on your day I was having one of those moments of reflection.

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Cujo: And it occurred to me why don’t we just talk about this when that’d be just going to need i’ll be curious to know what you what you think about me before I even start talking.

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Cujo: And then, if there are some negative stereotypes, perhaps there’s some if there’s some categorizing that we can together work on.

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Cujo: disbanding I think we can we can create this connection in a in a tech meeting scenario what I really want is is for you as one of one of my attendees.

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Cujo: to buy into the notion that my team can become a high performance team, we can learn to practice accountability, the way that these.

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Cujo: You know these jet pilots do we can we can achieve more than we already do we’re already outstanding we can we can be that much better.

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Cujo: And I think one of the techniques to do that is to connect on a very human level, and that was that was that was part of the effort there and say your your group is very good at accommodating and answering and helping helping us to grow yeah the approach work.

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Mike Malatesta: It was really because I was sort of.

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Mike Malatesta: You know it’s kind of intimidating when you when you.

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Mike Malatesta: know that you’re going to be in the company, if someone with your kind of credentials right it’s like we all have our own credentials and those are pretty significant for most people doesn’t matter who you are you’ve done some great stuff in your life.

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Mike Malatesta: But it’s all it’s just for me it’s like a little different level, you know it’s sort of it my perception was that it was a little different level, and I was really glad you did that, because it was.

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Mike Malatesta: Because i’ve seen people do the other thing you know where they they their posture is always perfect and you know the uniform is or the whatever they were is just.

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Mike Malatesta: exactly the way it would be if it were a military uniform because their ex military and it, you know there it just comes off they use it different they use what they have differently than you use what you have and I thought that was for me, it was a welcome approach.

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Mike Malatesta: So I mentioned Tom cruise we have seen that movie i’m wondering, you know.

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Mike Malatesta: what’s oh and, by the way, i’ve called i’m calling him Cujo which is, which is the name that he was given by his.

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Mike Malatesta: classmates I guess right are they the squad or whatever it was that you were in is that.

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Cujo: that’s right the 58th fighter Squadron at eglin air force base in Fort walton beach Florida my teammates when I was a brand new guy they named me Cujo as a result of stories that were told about me at my naming ceremony okay.

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Mike Malatesta: So, think of animal house where john belushi goes around and he gives each of the pledges.

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Cujo: that’s for me.

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Mike Malatesta: it’s probably sort of like that, but a little bit maybe a little bit different.

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Cujo: of a more structured.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah but so i’m good at so he’s not allowed to write you’re not allowed to it’s sort of a secret what that actually means for you.

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Mike Malatesta: But I know you told us, you know look up the movie and you can make draw your own circle that’s where we should leave it with people.

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Cujo: that’s right it’s it’s a honor the process I can’t tell the stories but yeah you can draw draw your own conclusions kind of a thing.

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Mike Malatesta: Well, maybe we can tell the story, though, about the first name that you were actually given there, which was, I believe it was an F and G three.

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Mike Malatesta: that’s right frickin new guy three.

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Cujo: that’s exactly right nicely done yeah there were two there were two F and G is ahead of me, and so I became F and G three on day number one in my very first fighter assignment.

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Mike Malatesta: So that’s the respect that you garner having come out of flight school.

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Mike Malatesta: But not been in fighter school yeah right.

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Cujo: yeah so technically you’re qualified in the airplane you have been through 15 training, but the tribe hasn’t fully embraced you as as as a lifetime Member yet and so.

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Cujo: there’s a vetting period, you know and it’s a it’s an opportunity for them to.

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Cujo: evaluate you it’s an opportunity for you to come in and demonstrate who you really are it’s one thing to have a curriculum vj it’s another thing to behave in accordance with what what you say that you are and so we’re we’re somewhat.

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Cujo: we’re patient or a patient to allow folks to demonstrate their true ethic, and then based upon what they demonstrate over many months we decided yep good fit or not, and if so let’s give them a lifelong call, so I was named back in.

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Cujo: 1998 and you know here it is 2021 and i’m still referring to myself as coo Joe and I hope to do so until the day that I die i’m wedded do it.

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Mike Malatesta: Well i’m glad you’re calling yourself Cujo and not fnc three.

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Mike Malatesta: Tough to walk around with.

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Cujo: that’s right.

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Cujo: that’s right.

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Mike Malatesta: But I think there’s a great takeaway there in that you know at this point in your career, you.

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Mike Malatesta: go on to the naval academy you’ve gone to flight school, you know you’re you’re now you’ve been elevated into this elite fighter pilot school and you come in and the people who have already been there aren’t willing to just give you immediate respect and recognition or positive recognition.

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Mike Malatesta: Because to them, you are just the frickin new guy one of the frickin new guys.

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Mike Malatesta: I think there’s a great takeaway there for a lot of us, because we expect that once we reach a certain point which you had certainly reached by that time and you walk into a room and everybody should be.

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Mike Malatesta: sure to you know know who you are and know what you’ve done and be impressed, and these.

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Mike Malatesta: You still have to earn that there’s something you keep having to earn right.

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Mike Malatesta: Yes, throughout your whole career as soon as you’re in a new audience.

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Mike Malatesta: You know you you’ve got a bio sure, but you’re the frickin new guy or the frickin new Gal right that’s who you are So what do you got for me how he prove your worth.

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Cujo: And that’s the beauty of this is that you’re you know you’re constantly pursuing couple of things.

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Cujo: At the fighter Squadron level we’re constantly pursuing perfection like we want to fly the perfect mission, we want everything to go exactly.

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Cujo: As you didn’t vision and never does never flew perfect much never in a in all of my time ever hit the benchmark but we’re striving for it and so it’s that constant pursuit of excellence that.

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Cujo: kind of motivates you, day in and day out when things are tough when circumstances are challenging you’re you’re always seeking.

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Cujo: And that’s a really good warrior spirit that I think applies anywhere and then tied to, that is, how are you coming prepared every day to be excellent.

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Cujo: And some people talk a good game, but it’s really performance driven we track performance we’ve got kpis as well and fighter Squadron.

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Cujo: And what we’re always looking to see is you know who’s the top gun every fighter squadrons got one.

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Cujo: Who is it that can go out there and perform the best who who out who outperforms everyone when it comes to weapons employment who’s the person is hardest to.

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Cujo: to shoot down when your dog fighting them who’s the person who you don’t want to get go up against because they’re going to shoot you down your dog fight, I mean we.

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Cujo: were always and we got a board we track those things, we can see who’s actually doing it and and the performance speaks for itself, and one of the things that I enjoyed about that particular life is that it was a meritocracy.

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Cujo: And so, if you if you demonstrated performance, then you were rewarded for it in not you know with with monetary compensation, but with the opportunity to learn how to be even better.

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Cujo: And that was the whole That was the whole principle of the weapon school, it still is, you take the best that you have, and you use you put them through the most grueling six month course that the air force has.

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Cujo: And you make them better that’s the idea of the weapons instructor course formally to fight a weapon school, and that was air force base and to go through that.

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Cujo: To make it to graduation to walk across the stage and to be recognized as a graduate was like by far the highlight of my professional career to be invited to come back as an instructor was even even fourth stunning, you know because.

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Cujo: In my mind i’m thinking I don’t deserve to be here, even be invited to come back and teach.

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Cujo: And it can those kinds of accolades can distance you from others, it can cause you to think that you’re somebody special and that you’ve.

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Cujo: You know that you deserve a level of respect that others don’t have again I come back to cancer, if I have ever had any.

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Cujo: Any notions of pride and ego is getting the better of me cancer divorced me of all of those afflictions in an instant.

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Cujo: Because no longer was it about what the curriculum vj said no, no longer was it about how cool patch I was wearing or whatever it was it was now about.

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Cujo: You know, can I survive this thing can we can we find a way to to live through this provide for the family and what am I really on earth to do like like what is my true purpose, we spent a lot of time digging into that and what was neat was is that in Phase one of life.

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Cujo: You know, coming in, as a brand new frickin new guy eventually Cujo eventually going through my evolution, eventually, making it to the level of a Squadron commander, I thought I exist to fly airplanes.

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Cujo: What I think answer taught me was was that I had a fantastic background, which sets me up then to teach which fighter pilots a teacher first and always, by the way.

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Cujo: to teach things that make an impact, to make the world a little bit better.

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Cujo: And some of those things title leadership, some of those things tied to just general humaneness some of those things are on a spiritual domain, but there’s such.

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Cujo: there’s so much more on this side of the divide than when I was when I was thinking that I was going to devote myself to and that’s one of the many good outcomes of bad news instacart, which is why I say that’s where it all got going.

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Mike Malatesta: And what.

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Mike Malatesta: You mentioned meritocracy and It made me think i’d love to get your opinion on why you think a meritocracy is.

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Mike Malatesta: So great because, and the reason i’m asking is because and it’s probably I you know, I was, I was almost about the same nowadays people.

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Mike Malatesta: I sound so old when you say, nowadays, so I don’t want to say, nowadays, but it does seem like there’s a lot of more there’s a lot more attention being paid to.

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Mike Malatesta: sameness.

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Mike Malatesta: Then there is to meritocracy and.

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Mike Malatesta: And I it’s almost like if you say now, if you say you’re you are a believer in meritocracy Cujo that.

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Mike Malatesta: People might accuse you are not accused, but just say well it’s great to have the privilege to be in a place where you could you know thrive in a meritocracy or something along those lines, and I just want to.

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Mike Malatesta: You know, get your sense about what why it’s why you are a believer in our toxicity.

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Cujo: yeah I think.

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Cujo: I think meritocracy ties to integrity, I think.

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Cujo: You want to have an organization that that lives, the core value of integrity and all that it does.

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Cujo: One of the things that I really appreciated about the air force was was that, regardless of anybody’s background, if you went out there and perform if you.

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Cujo: If you achieve mission success consistently it didn’t matter where you came from all that mattered was you got this thing done and.

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Cujo: And we asked you to stick around we asked you to evolve and to and to grow as a leader, we asked you to.

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Cujo: To be a commander eventually we asked you to take on more responsibilities, because we could trust you with it, it was it was a.

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Cujo: Relatively pure place to do work it’s flawed, I mean anything that has humans involved in it there’s going to be there’s going to be issues nothing’s perfect and not i’m not trying to suggest that it is, but.

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Cujo: I felt like anybody had a chance in that environment to to meet their potential and maybe even exceed it.

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Cujo: And we were really focused in that world on growing people to be their very best and we spent so much time.

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Cujo: coaching people up and helping them to overcome their own inhibitions and limitations to performance because.

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Cujo: Our goal was to help everybody to be their very best and going back to my formative years at the air force Academy in Colorado springs.

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Cujo: If you think about it, in order to get accepted to college university.

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Cujo: You have to be an outstanding individual achiever right you’ve got to get good grades you’ve got to be the President of this and that you got to have outstanding s ETA CT scores you got to have this.

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Cujo: Again, it comes down to look at my list of accomplishments and how awesome I am and you put that front and Center and you know review boards look at it and, eventually, you get accepted or denied if you get accepted to prove that your outstanding.

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Cujo: And you can really get into yourself at the air force Academy, is where they changed the the change the evaluation dynamics.

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Cujo: For a bunch of teenagers, when I was 17 years old, when I started basically that training and if I came out of my dorm room.

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Cujo: wearing my uniform perfectly and you mentioned, you know folks coming from my background and everything’s creased and it’s tight it’s perfect and.

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Cujo: If I look perfect and my roommate didn’t I was punished because our standard wasn’t how awesome Are you the standard was how awesome are you as a team.

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Cujo: And you are judged against the lowest performer, and so our goal was our ambition was to raise the lowest performers level of achievement and.

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Cujo: There were things that I might be really good at there might be things that i’m not so good at we figured out who the.

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Cujo: Experts were and all the different fields that we were being evaluated on whether it was knowledge, whether it was uniform prep whether it was physical conditioning whatever and.

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Cujo: We would work together so that we, as a team got through the challenge and we were rewarded as a team when everybody passed, and that was a really wonderful dynamic and.

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Cujo: You know, and so, so that was part of the equation over here, and it was It was in that spirit than that we entered into the fighter pilot domain.

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Cujo: we’re now some people, some people are going to be able to get it better than others there’s too much going on for everybody to be.

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Cujo: You know number one so we’re going to track, who number one is going to track number two is number three is.

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Cujo: And we know that most of the folks are going to be able to to hang out sort of in the average and that’s okay.

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Cujo: we’re really want to help those that aren’t quite there to elevate their game we’re going to make a decision early on, as to whether or not they’re going to be a long term fit and move them elsewhere, but it was in that environment that I thought we had a really, really good team dynamic.

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Cujo: We enjoyed being in each other’s company we love going on the road together.

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Cujo: And what we find is is that people miss being involved in that, like all of my friends who have retired we all think back fondly on those days and look on them as being kind of the best days and wish that there were more organizations on.

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Cujo: You know out in the world that that had that kind of that kind of a vibrancy to them even my wife would tell you.

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Cujo: She misses me going to roll call she misses us being involved in the family dynamics of an air force fighter Squadron she loved it i’m sorry for getting a little bit long winded there.

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Mike Malatesta: No that’s Okay, I, like the way that you.

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You.

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Mike Malatesta: tied meritocracy to a group, because when I asked you the question I was not thinking about it in a group way and I think.

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Mike Malatesta: I feel like a lot of people might not think of it in a group way, but when you it makes it way more powerful when you describe a meritocracy.

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Mike Malatesta: As the contribution of the entire group to achieving you know, a particular goal, or how they achieve the goal or at what level they’re able to achieve the goal, so I thank you for that I wasn’t.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah that’s really see that changes the whole dynamic of meritocracy versus you know sameness because it is sameness same has to be great right same this as a group, to be the best you can possibly be.

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Cujo: And that’s our aspiration is to be the best that we can be because we’re so wedded to our purpose in a fighter squad and we’re so connected to it that it drives us each and every day.

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Cujo: You know it’s not money that we’re out there to get not fame certainly not fortune it’s all about it’s all about contributing to our national Defense and being as prepared, as we can be.

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Cujo: So that when we’re called on, we do the job, the right way, as expected to keep our country free and With that purpose in mind, you know folks are willing to go into harm’s way and give everything that’s a powerful concept, I think, Simon cynic did a very good job articulating.

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Cujo: What would Viktor frankl wrote about.

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Cujo: You know from experiences in a concentration camp, the core of that Why is enough to get us through the darkest moments, and to cause us to be able to stay focused on that which is going to allow us to.

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Cujo: To make it through those tough times and come out on the other side.

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Cujo: That much better and then, if we understand why it is we do what we do, we care to learn how to do it better all of its interconnected.

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Cujo: You know, and I trace it back to Franklin certainly goes back much farther than him but.

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Cujo: Two books that people have probably read probably picked up frankel’s book hopefully somewhere along the way into.

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Cujo: Things that you know made people multimillionaires cynic did a great job with start with why and all of that’s connected to this thread of you know, helping us to become our best helping us to be the best team that we can be.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah, I imagine, some people listening would go back to the Bible on that, but I Victor frankel’s book man’s search for meaning, I think, is the book you’re referring to and.

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Cujo: that’s right it’s.

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Mike Malatesta: It is amazing how, when you have a why a powerful why you can put a lot of crap to the side.

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Cujo: Exactly.

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Mike Malatesta: d rails other people’s stuff that is.

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Mike Malatesta: You know, ultimately distraction.

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Mike Malatesta: But can easily be come front page news for you right.

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Mike Malatesta: But if you know your why you can just put it to the side and keep.

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Mike Malatesta: You know, keep moving forward, so thank you for sharing that.

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Mike Malatesta: I want to ask in the weeds question before I start to tie together are we start to tie together, you know what you learned in the.

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Mike Malatesta: In the air force with the work that you do now, and I think, so the in the weeds question I want to ask you is.

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Mike Malatesta: F 15 F 22 most people have no idea listening I imagined have no idea what those planes are so I would like from someone who’s you know, been in for flown trained taught what it, what is the difference between those two planes and what is it like to to be inside of one of those.

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Mike Malatesta: or operate one of those.

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Cujo: yeah yeah wow Okay, so the is the world’s greatest air superiority fighter it’s designed to go out.

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Cujo: and clear the skies of enemy aircraft, so that we can either you know go deep into bad guy land and do what we need to do or protect ourselves from anybody who’s trying to attack us.

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Cujo: it’s a it’s a magnificent airplane it was it was designed with slide rules in the 1960s, it was first flown in California 1972 became operational in the 1970s.

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Cujo: We bought maybe 750 of them, it was it was the backbone of our air superiority fleet and just from a from a context standpoint.

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Cujo: American troops have not been attacked from for enemy airpower since 1953 so since the end of the Korean War which which any air superiority I would tell you, you know it’s a badge of honor for us.

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Mike Malatesta: The word clear Cujo you mean.

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Cujo: Yes, so will eliminate will take out any airplanes that are in our way and we were designed the airplane is is designed around a gigantic radar system that can detect enemy aircraft and we’ve we’ve got eight air to air missiles on the version that I flew there’s 12 and the new.

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Cujo: That the Boeing just released and those things are designed to eliminate the airplane that might be in our way so that’s that’s core mission set for the air superiority side of things, the.

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Cujo: Is a fourth generation airplanes tracing back to you know the Wright brothers in the first powered flight we’ve evolved in generations and the 15 is considered to be a fourth generation of aircraft development, the fifth generation of aircraft development is.

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Cujo: is to provide by the F 22 and the F 35 so the F 22 is an evolution on the.

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Cujo: it’s designed for air supremacy, it also has a primary mission of wiping out any enemy air threats, but it also can can go in and drop.

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Cujo: And drop munitions drop bombs on targets and the F 22 it’s low observable so it can get deep into enemy or space, you know, theoretically, without them, knowing that we’re there.

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Cujo: It can do things like fly faster than the speed of sound without use of afterburners so it’s more fuel conservative it’s got some really fantastic features that make the workload for the pilot go down and it’s a market improvement on the core of of what it is the.

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Cujo: Does this we have to have been able to fly both of those was such an incredible blessing in my world now what does it feel like to fly these things, imagine.

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Cujo: Imagine being absolutely at your most exhaustive ever like you’re up all night kids are sick.

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Cujo: You know you’re writing another chapter to your book you’re stressed about finance you get any number of things on your mind you didn’t sleep a wink and now you’re dragging a shave and coming in, when ready to go to work like I only know if i’m safe to drive.

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Cujo: picture yourself a strapping into an F 22 or.

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Cujo: And plugging in the afterburners and getting a charge of adrenaline that wakes you up and it’s going to keep you awake for the next however many hours that you’re out there, it is a rush.

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Cujo: I mean the thrill of feeling the afterburners kicking in behind you and just roaring down the runway.

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Cujo: and accelerating in no time and lifting off and raising the landing gear and zip it on and maybe you’re flying and close formation to another airplane.

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Cujo: And you’re going out there to to accomplish a mission and we never just fly, for the sake of why we were out there do it.

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Cujo: To achieve some objectives on a given mission and now you’re putting all of your training all your knowledge to the test.

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Cujo: In terms of your physical and your mental execution you’re out there it’s a full contact sport you’re doing things that the body is not accustomed to doing.

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Cujo: In the in the raptor when you when you pull back on a stick, which is like a very, very slight movement on the control stick on the right side of the airplane.

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Cujo: you’re almost instantaneously at nine times the force of gravity the blood rushes out of your brain into your hands into your feet, you have to fight to stay awake.

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Cujo: you’re making decisions based off of a dot you see on the horizon, as to whether this is a good guy or bad guy whether or not you’re going to use a weapon you’re merging.

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Cujo: You know it hundreds of miles an hour with a with a threat you’re transitioning from high speed slow speed flight and just doing all this stuff and then you come back down.

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Cujo: an hour later, you know, and you and you realize what you’ve just accomplished and it’s it can’t duplicate it i’ve tried it i’ve jumped out of airplanes have.

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Cujo: ridden motorcycles round whatever done i’ve been fun things, but nothing comes close to the rush of being out there and testing yourself always.

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Cujo: experiencing those forces it’s it is it’s a phenomenal way of life, it leads to degradation of the spinal column and.

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Cujo: all kinds of other issues, maybe even a little bit of colorectal cancer if none of time, but I wouldn’t trade it I wouldn’t trade it for anything Mike and I i’m eternally blessed for having had that background okay.

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Mike Malatesta: Well, I appreciate you sharing that because, as you were talking it through, I was thinking Okay, so they say the hardest thing to do in sports has to hit a baseball.

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Mike Malatesta: And i’m thinking to myself well she’s if that was the hardest thing to do, as a fighter pilot you’d have had a lot of fighter pilots, but.

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Mike Malatesta: You just described, there seems a hell of a lot harder than then hitting a baseball and I guess.

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Mike Malatesta: The book debrief to when you basically take us through in in tremendous detail which, thank you for that I was mentioning that before we went on, I mean this book debrief to win.

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Mike Malatesta: really takes you through how to do an effective debrief how to build good accountability into.

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Mike Malatesta: Your organization accountability at a level that I don’t think any most people listening, who will define accountability in a workplace would come even close.

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Mike Malatesta: To being what you what you’re trying what the what the what the air force and then what what you are doing with the Max group are trying to build into companies and I guess, I want to start with the.

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Mike Malatesta: debrief in the in the in the air force so the, which is the basis for what you what you are now doing right, so you just described, you know speed of sound or faster.

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Mike Malatesta: Blood leaving your brain.

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Mike Malatesta: You know, able to clear, you know the skies, and you know all of this being done in I don’t know how much space, you can travel in a second or.

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Cujo: Meeting go 10 miles a minute at at mach one you’re going 10 miles a minute Mark two is 20 miles a minute okay.

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Mike Malatesta: So phenomenally fast right, and then you guys do this, which is amazing, and I was in and of itself, you land you, you know, and you almost immediately.

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Mike Malatesta: get into a room and start talking about what went right with the mission what went wrong with the mission, and not only that it’s not.

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Mike Malatesta: it’s not there’s no class in in these debriefs right, so you could be that you know the FN G three or you can be the commander, and if the commander, and if the commander was flying or teaching right same thing and you’re in this room, so to.

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Mike Malatesta: give everybody in and give everybody.

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Mike Malatesta: An understanding of what that processes is actually like because most people I think like holy crap I landed the plane enough okay.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah that’s a success, I got back.

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Cujo: that’s right.

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Mike Malatesta: that’s just the start.

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Cujo: That is just the start, in fact, we would tell you if you go do a Google search for fighter pilot debrief chances are you’re going to find.

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Cujo: Multiple articles written by former fighter pilots who tell you the that’s, the most important part of the mission it’s not actually flying the mission it’s the debrief of the mission because that’s where we learn.

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Cujo: And we know that we’re limited, you know there’s not enough gas for you to fly in definitely there’s not enough sorties as we call the missions available to be able to fly every day so maybe a fly depending on where you are in the evolution eight to 10 times a month.

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Cujo: And so, how do you get as much bang for the buck and how do you keep everybody on point with.

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Cujo: doing what it is that we’re the country’s asking of us, given some of those limitations and the simple answer is you’re going to dissect every mission that you flew for everything that you can learn from it.

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Cujo: So that the next time out here that much better, and you know we’re human so there’s going to be days when you.

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Cujo: Allegedly learn something yesterday and today go out there and you do, even worse, but that’s just part of the human condition you’re gonna learn from that again and, hopefully, the next time get it right.

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Cujo: or really trying to do is we’re trying to make sure that we don’t ever get complacent.

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Cujo: Because complacency kills and we’re really kills us is if we think that.

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Cujo: The solution to today’s problem, the one that we applied in yesterday’s plan is going to solve tomorrow’s problem as well, because it won’t always mean the world’s changing around us and such a fast clip so we’re.

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Cujo: Conscientious of that we’re trying to avoid complacency we’re also trying to avoid the arrogance says don’t you know who we are, we always win.

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Cujo: And if we don’t take the time to assess how we’re doing that arrogance is going to hurt us, and so we can’t allow either those afflictions to take root and then there’s this this idea that.

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Cujo: it’s such a volatile such an uncertain such a complex session ambiguous.

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Cujo: arena in which we operate the US army war college coined the term Luca volatile uncertain complex and ambiguous that’s fighter aviation.

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Cujo: In order to day consistently pursue excellence we’ve got to learn, each time we go out there and so we do we’re very disciplined in it.

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Cujo: You talk about the amount of time that we spend we might you know at the weapons instructor course Mike.

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Cujo: We would fly missions that lasted an hour of which maybe 35 minutes was actual tactical execution.

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Cujo: You know you have to fly to the place that you’re going to go fight, you have to fly back from so that takes a huge chunk of time I will be brief, that thing for 19 solid hours, and I would never encourage anybody in business.

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Cujo: To go through that pain there’s no need to but in our world will do that to maximize our time to make sure that we’re on point.

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Cujo: And what we found is the most effective mechanism to ensure that we meet the nation’s call always.

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Cujo: And those you know the notion that you wouldn’t do this everywhere is anathema to us, we can’t comprehend that the rest of the world doesn’t debrief the way that we do, because that is the most effective tool that we have to guarantee performance always.

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Cujo: And we have a strip.

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Cujo: know we have a we have a structure for it, so it always looks the same like we know you know i’m I haven’t been in a fighter Squadron and years, so you know, the last time I flew was in in 2012.

357

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Cujo: But if I were to jump into a fighter Squadron tomorrow I guarantee you the structures, the exact same as what I used to teach.

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Cujo: The structure doesn’t need to change the principles remain constant how it is we learn remains constant what we learn that’s the part that changes so there’s comfort and familiarity and that when everybody’s used to it.

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Cujo: When they recognize the value of it it’s not something that’s off putting it’s something that you gravitate towards it’s not that it’s easy it’s it can be, it can be difficult to become.

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Cujo: really well versed at it, but it’s such a useful tool that will never not do it will always end a mission with a debrief.

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Cujo: And I think I.

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Mike Malatesta: I watched one or two debrief videos you mentioned the videos and what struck me well, a couple things one when people when most people think about accountability with leaders are told, all the time because.

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Mike Malatesta: You know you got to hold you got to keep your team accountable right and it’s it’s an easy thing to say, and a difficult thing to do, and I think it’s.

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Mike Malatesta: I think what’s happened and tell me if you think this this is true, I think what’s happened is a lot of people who are on the receiving end of being accountable feel they hear being punished, rather than being accountable right.

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Cujo: Yes, um, do you agree with that okay hundred percent yes, which.

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Mike Malatesta: which obviously you can’t get anywhere with us with with a system that people think is punishing them as opposed to you know, helping them, but when I when I watch these videos and read your book, because he has an actual text of debriefs in the book and what struck me was that.

367

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Mike Malatesta: There was no, you should have.

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Mike Malatesta: In a debrief so there was no person saying to another, you should have it was, I think it was a question about you know, did you consider or something along those lines, and everyone else as they go around the table, even if they had a perfect mission.

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Mike Malatesta: Like they’re getting congratulated on the mission says, you know, thank you, but as i’m reflecting here, I could have, and then they say something that they could have done that may have improved.

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Mike Malatesta: The mission and do I have that right is that the sort of the the approach and the cadence and these things.

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Cujo: You do, and I would say that there’s you know there’s always going to be a spectrum, I mean there’s you know.

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Cujo: there’s not one size fits all there’s times when you’re going to be prescriptive there might be a time when I say look my got it there’s all kinds of the next time never do that again.

373

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Mike Malatesta: Right you never exchanger right.

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Cujo: Right that’s it is dangerous kind of a thing if it’s odd you know time.

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Cujo: But we really want these debriefs sessions to be learning sessions, the best way to learn something is to help coach somebody through to an answer, they arrive at the conclusion themselves, and if.

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Cujo: If you can get them to come to that self realization and if if we can create an environment where people can be vulnerable and take ownership.

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Cujo: Then we really equipped ourselves to be excellent vulnerable being able to admit to mistakes and weaknesses in front of each other that’s a hard thing to do it just so happens that in a fighter Squadron that is this the constant state.

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Cujo: of affairs it’s just just how it is we’re able to be vulnerable, we have a thing called psychological safety we reward people for being vulnerable.

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Cujo: And if we can, if we can admit to mistakes weaknesses, we can take that one evolution further we can take ownership of the outcomes and what’s really.

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Cujo: fascinating to see is on the heels of a failure it’s not uncommon for everybody to offer that they’re the reason why the mission wasn’t a success.

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Cujo: And when you get to the sort of elevated state of teamwork where everybody is fighting somebody else say no actually this you know.

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Cujo: You can pin this on me, because what happened was I didn’t do this thing and then the other person says well yeah that’s fine, but that wasn’t as big of a deal is mine not having done, the thing.

383

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Cujo: And the Leader stuffing and saying yeah and i’m the one.

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Cujo: who manage this whole thing all the way through, and I allowed you to do this and I allowed you to do this and I didn’t give you guys any additional guys actually on me i’ll give you 10% and 10%.

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Cujo: But 80% of this is me that’s an environment where you really start to elevate and by elevate i’m talking we start to perform and.

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Cujo: If you go back to if we go back to that first question, he asked me and the kind of odd entry that I gave you in response you know cancer is where it all kind of took a turn the reason why I say, that is, is that we took.

387

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Cujo: The time my wife and I did to debrief how it is, we got into the cancer journey, because it was avoidable.

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Cujo: And we we follow the same rigor that I taught in the air force that I used on every mission that I flew.

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Cujo: We applied it to ourselves and what we found was is that you know being vulnerable and really was being vulnerable.

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Cujo: In front of my wife, I take ownership of the fact that.

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Cujo: I completely flubbed the opportunity to investigate at a time when we could have literally nip this thing in the in the in the button, all of us suffered for the kids did my wife did.

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Cujo: I physically did, but I feel bad for what it is that I expose them to and all of this, and yet.

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Cujo: The outcome is so much better than if we had never gone through this because it’s through our greatest failures that we accomplish hopefully our biggest.

394

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Cujo: steps forward we learn the most and we evolve fastest.

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Cujo: it’s our ambition as a family to be a high performance team and cancer was the tipping point in that direction if i’m teaching teamwork principles to business leaders or if i’m doing this in the finest.

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Cujo: Why aren’t we doing this at home huge takeaway for me is that a team is a team as a team and the most important team that some of us are privileged to be on is on the family team.

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Cujo: And if we’re not concentrated there, and if we’re not working, every day to be our best in the family domain and what does the other stuff even matter.

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Cujo: If you go back beyond Viktor frankl and take it back to the Bible there’s a spiritual independent to all of this, and I believe it’s my obligation.

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Cujo: To be here for my family and part of that obligation means talking about things and being open about experiences and keeping those secrets from the people that I love and so.

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Cujo: we’re working every day to be the best family team that we can be, and that would not have happened, had we not gone through the debrief of the cancer journey Nice.

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Mike Malatesta: So thanks for sharing that, by the way.

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Mike Malatesta: Of course, the.

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Mike Malatesta: I guess what I want to try to end with here’s what has to be true, about a company or a leadership team.

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Mike Malatesta: In order for you the work that you’re doing now at V Max group to be.

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00:56:19.530 –> 00:56:19.920

helpful.

406

00:56:21.030 –> 00:56:33.870

Mike Malatesta: And in and I went to prep I just want to because there’s there’s probably very few companies out there who have a mission, like the missions, you were describing right with all of those high intensity things happening all the time.

407

00:56:35.250 –> 00:56:37.770

Mike Malatesta: So there’s not that and they didn’t all come out of.

408

00:56:39.300 –> 00:56:45.930

Mike Malatesta: You know the air force academy or the naval academy or that you know these you know super high Echelon places.

409

00:56:47.790 –> 00:56:51.030

Mike Malatesta: In and they aren’t doing work that’s important for the.

410

00:56:51.240 –> 00:56:52.710

Mike Malatesta: National Security of our.

411

00:56:53.370 –> 00:56:56.430

Mike Malatesta: country, for example, and all these things, so what has to be true.

412

00:56:58.800 –> 00:56:59.340

Mike Malatesta: To.

413

00:57:00.900 –> 00:57:05.490

Mike Malatesta: yeah what has to be true for you to work be able to work and help and help them.

414

00:57:07.170 –> 00:57:07.560

Cujo: I think.

415

00:57:08.670 –> 00:57:22.410

Cujo: I think at a very basic level, they have to recognize that as good as they are, at whatever it is that they do the big be better nobody has ever flown the perfect mission I would argue in any domain like we maybe we think we’re close but.

416

00:57:23.490 –> 00:57:31.950

Cujo: But if that’s the case then that’s really almost unfortunate because what kind of a future is there, like you know if you’re if you’re already maxed out and perfect then.

417

00:57:33.360 –> 00:57:36.420

Cujo: I mean, I guess you start to die at that point, I really don’t know.

418

00:57:36.450 –> 00:57:40.920

Mike Malatesta: You know, and so I think in right yeah you’ve written a story that’s not true, how about that we just.

419

00:57:40.950 –> 00:57:52.890

Cujo: I would agree with you, and so, if you’re if the fundamental premise is as good as we are, we can be better than that’s that’s the place that that that we want to have a conversation, and remember this.

420

00:57:53.970 –> 00:57:56.250

Cujo: All of us are doing something that’s making an impact.

421

00:57:57.270 –> 00:58:11.850

Cujo: And one of my one of my biggest challenges is listening to a chief executive officer undersell what it is that our company does all we do here Cujo is we make a screw and so therefore were unimportant haha.

422

00:58:13.470 –> 00:58:20.610

Cujo: What I would say is if that’s your view is the chief executive is the person leading this organization you’re not the right person for that organization or.

423

00:58:21.120 –> 00:58:29.430

Cujo: i’ll give you some give you some grace here and see maybe spend some time on earth thing why it is that you work in this company and find your core why.

424

00:58:30.210 –> 00:58:33.990

Cujo: And that exploration can be a deeply meaningful effort.

425

00:58:34.080 –> 00:58:42.720

Cujo: That leads us to recognize the impact that we’re truly making by virtue of the screw that we manufacture, where the rubber piece that we’ve created whatever it is that we do around here.

426

00:58:43.140 –> 00:58:47.130

Cujo: And that’s necessary and, by the way, every company employs somebody.

427

00:58:47.610 –> 00:58:55.050

Cujo: Who is able to live their life because of the compensation they get from this company so there’s additional meaning and that we got to keep these doors open.

428

00:58:55.410 –> 00:59:04.950

Cujo: And then, on a strategic level all these small businesses got to succeed if we want to have an economy that’s strong enough to afford the Defense that we need in a really disruptive world so it’s all tied together.

429

00:59:05.220 –> 00:59:16.950

Cujo: And if the ambition is hey we’re really good that we can be better, why not learn from an organization that takes the best of the best and makes them that much better to go back and teach so that we’re constantly learning and growing.

430

00:59:17.760 –> 00:59:26.430

Cujo: That I think is the essence of business, we ought to be constantly learning constantly growing in order to be able to make the impact that we have that’s the entry point.

431

00:59:28.080 –> 00:59:44.490

Mike Malatesta: Well, that sure seems like an entry point that almost anybody can walk into then because I don’t know that there’s a company out there, or a person out there, or any organization out there that can say that they’re at a point where their ability to to to improve.

432

00:59:45.990 –> 00:59:48.660

Mike Malatesta: For their ability to increase their capability to improve.

433

00:59:50.100 –> 00:59:53.490

Mike Malatesta: You know it’s just it’s just maxed out, I mean there’s just no more willing to go.

434

00:59:55.320 –> 01:00:00.240

Cujo: Even Toyota production system which really you know popularized the concept of continuous improvement.

435

01:00:01.320 –> 01:00:10.860

Cujo: For as long as they’ve been doing it i’ve been consistently continuing to try to get better and maybe taking some steps backwards right the break issue a couple of years ago and whatnot I.

436

01:00:10.860 –> 01:00:12.930

Cujo: mean human James dealing with you and things.

437

01:00:13.290 –> 01:00:15.750

Mike Malatesta: like this acceleration.

438

01:00:15.780 –> 01:00:29.940

Cujo: that’s right that’s right so there’s always opportunities to learn we’re never going to be consistently perfect that’s part of the human condition, and so we have to aspire to to learn how to be better.

439

01:00:30.660 –> 01:00:35.670

Cujo: As things change around us and change within us and that’s what’s exciting so.

440

01:00:36.180 –> 01:00:46.680

Cujo: tying it all back I used to think that I existed, be a fighter pilot now, I think I was a fighter pilot to assist in my true life’s work of helping organizations and people improve.

441

01:00:47.220 –> 01:00:53.190

Cujo: Whatever it is that they do, because it most all of it is incredibly meaningful, sometimes we just have to figure out how.

442

01:00:54.870 –> 01:00:55.470

nicely done.

443

01:00:57.030 –> 01:01:04.350

Mike Malatesta: Well, Robert Cujo tester Thank you so much for being on the show today I, this has been a real gift i’m glad you came on.

444

01:01:05.820 –> 01:01:11.220

Mike Malatesta: i’m glad I met you in the first place i’m glad that you were up in the skies, you know, protecting us i’m glad that.

445

01:01:11.880 –> 01:01:24.030

Mike Malatesta: Not glad that you got cancer, but i’m glad that that having gone through the cancer process has been the new story, you know, or it has actually improved the story of your life that was this fabulous way to look at it and it made you.

446

01:01:25.380 –> 01:01:43.020

Mike Malatesta: You know, really relatable to the you know average person right, I mean all of a sudden you’re lumped in with a lot of other people have similar problem that’s that’s that’s connected to being a human it’s just a human problem.

447

01:01:44.280 –> 01:01:55.020

Mike Malatesta: and congratulations for for getting past it and seven years of of good cancer free life that will, I hope, be seven more in seven more in seven more in seven more.

448

01:01:55.050 –> 01:02:00.630

Mike Malatesta: Yes, how do you want people to contact you what’s the best way for people to reach out.

449

01:02:01.230 –> 01:02:10.980

Cujo: The easiest way is through the website V Max group llc COM there’s a there’s a button says request an appointment or schedule an appointment that’s the easiest thing it brings up my calendar.

450

01:02:11.490 –> 01:02:18.660

Cujo: And we’ll take it from there and i’ve had all kinds of different conversations with folks not just tied to hey can you come work with us, but.

451

01:02:19.140 –> 01:02:30.420

Cujo: i’ve got some questions, but something that you said in the podcast and always happy to accommodate that so vm X GR oh up llc COM that’s the way to get in touch with me.

452

01:02:30.960 –> 01:02:35.130

Mike Malatesta: All right, super cool Joe Thank you so much for being on the show it’s been it’s been a great honor.

453

01:02:35.400 –> 01:02:45.330

Cujo: Mike thanks for having me, it was a joy to meet you in person, and I was looking forward to today, ever since you invited me, initially, so thank you, thank you, thank you doing great work in the world.