Scott Mautz, Effectively Leading From The Middle (#176)

Scott Mautz is an expert in employee engagement, peak performance, and leadership/self-leadership, and he is known for his popular books and speeches about these topics. He’s a former Procter & Gamble senior executive who successfully ran several of the company’s largest multi-billion dollar businesses, sett
He was on the “How It’d Happen Podcast” about one year ago, for Episode 107, and it’s really exciting having him on again, talking this time about effectively leading from the middle, which is the topic of his newest book, “Leading from the Middle: A Playbook for Managers to Influence Up, Down, and Across the Organization”.

Leading from the Middle

“Leading from the Middle” is the title of Scott Mautz’s new book, which he defines as a love letter to the backbone of every organization: the middle manager. That’s also known as the “messy middle”, in fact, as a middle manager you have a boss and at the same time, you are a boss too. Those can be difficult waters to navigate, but Scott can teach you to make a bigger impact as a middle manager, with the ultimate goal of leading from the middle.
Because, at the end of the day, being in the middle doesn’t necessarily equal being stuck in the middle. You can actually use it as a unique opportunity to lead in every direction, and Scott Mautz will give you the tools to do just that.

Full transcript below

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Podcast with Scott Mautz. Effectively Leading From The Middle.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, manager, middle, book, scott, possibilities, mike, boss, research, podcast, pragmatic, pandemic, lead, great, feedback, productivity, thought, pragmatism, spend, minutes

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, manager, middle, book, scott, possibilities, mike, boss, research, podcast, pragmatic, pandemic, lead, great, feedback, productivity, thought, pragmatism, spend, minutes

SPEAKERS

Mike Malatesta, Scott Mautz

Mike Malatesta  00:01

various recording devices. Okay.

Scott Mautz  00:11

Recorded Sound is okay, by the way,

Mike Malatesta  00:14

I can hear you great yeah I can hear you great in my good, you got me good. Okay. All right, I’ll just count them three to one, and then we’ll go. Here we go 321 Hey Scott, welcome back to the HOW TO HAPPEN podcast,

Scott Mautz  00:33

perfect to be here again. You’re tearing it up I got to be a part of a movement.

Mike Malatesta  00:39

Well, it was really I was, was a really big deal for me the first time I had you on which for those of you who want to listen to that. It’s episode 107 Because it was the first time Scott that I had approached someone who had presented to Vistage. So, I met you virtually on this big webinar with probably 1000 people on it, and it was the first I think maybe the first time you had, it was a year ago. A little over a year ago, first time you had to present to a group like that virtually, which people are pretty used to now, but at that time it was like, wait a minute, this guy’s gonna talk into a camera for like three hours or whatever it was. And, and he pulled it off and. And so, I was so impressed by it I was like wow I normally wouldn’t contact these people but I thought, Well, why not. So, um, so yeah it was it was, and I’ve done that several times since because you know it’s it’s a lot easier for me to connect with people in all parts of the world, like you in San Diego for example so that I owe you. Thank you for, you know, kind of breaking me out of this limiting thought that I had before I had a chance to see you the first time. So, um, Scott’s already asked, answered the How’d it happen question in Episode 107 So now we’re going to ask the question a little bit differently which is Scott How did happen for you in the last year.

Scott Mautz  02:18

Yeah, it’s funny you bring it up Mike, it required, like many people, a major. Of course I’m an author and a speaker, and when your business model is based on live events, live events, go away overnight, or they convert to virtual, you have to scramble in a hurry and change your business model and get with the times or, you know fall behind the times very very quickly so, kind of how things have been happening for me since I saw you last was a very quick pivot to understanding what does it take to deliver a really great virtual presentation and a great virtual event and, you know, interesting a lot of people assume it’s the same thing, well you know all you do Scott is you talk the same stuff, and you just do it the same way you just do it to a camera that’s that is not true. There’s a whole different world of having to engage people in an online environment and a whole different bag of tricks and tips that you have to be able to develop and do and, you know, then oh by the way, there’s the technology aspect of it to be able to do it well. And so, I’ve learned an awful lot like over the last year and I’m happy to say I’m better for the experience you know what, but like the rest of the world I wish this virus never hit for many, many reasons, on a professional note. Looking back, you know, I’m, I feel blessed that I was able to make the best of it and in the end you know I’ve expanded my menu of offerings, I now have virtual events as part of my offering I think going forward, we’re going to be in a hybrid world right we’re sure we’re never going to go back to the way we were so I’m always gonna need to have virtual events as part of that, I’ve added training to my menu of options and more coaching and more keynotes so you know for me it’s really happened in a way I didn’t expect over the last year you know if you had told me, even before that visitor that, you know, we’d be in a world where there wouldn’t be live events for a year I would have told you you were crazy so that’s what’s been happening for me pivoting hard and and thankful for it looking back on it,

Mike Malatesta  04:09

and how long into it, Scott, so we, you, you presented to Vistage and where I saw it was March of, I think it was March or early April of, of 2020, and I imagine at that time you were probably thinking like a lot of people whereas, oh, you know, a couple months from now, things will be, maybe, like, how long did it take you before you’re like, Oh, this is, I have to have a permanent strategy, even when I’m back in front of you know, large audiences on a stage or something.

Scott Mautz  04:42

Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. To be honest with you and as I try to be life. Always. I went through a period of denial, where it was very painful to think that something that I’d gotten really good at live events to 1000s was going to evaporate and it took me you know probably two or three months of going through a denial phase were like, Alright, I’m just gonna ride this out, this can’t go on this long, right, it can’t be that bad. I know this, figuring out all the technology setting up a studio that I have now at home a virtual studio is an awful lot of work, you know, what if I can just ride this out, and after about two months of seeing my calendar completely dry up losing over a dozen events, live events, them telling me hey we’ll get back to you if we’re going to reschedule this at all, kind of a light went off that I better make up for lost time already, I’m already, I feel like I’m two months behind. And it was at that point that I knew I had to move quick and hard so you know, lesson learned for me I probably could have moved even quicker than some of my compatriots that but, you know, I learned the lesson hard we moved on and pivoted fast from that.

Mike Malatesta  05:47

And you mentioned, pardon me earlier that, you know this thought that you can just stand in front of the camera and present as you normally would, you know, isn’t the way to do it, what have you actually learned and what are you doing now differently than what you thought you were going to need to do for whatever period of time you thought it might be.

Scott Mautz  06:09

Yeah, that’s a great point Mike and I could go on and on, I’ll give you just a few examples but, you know, there’s things all the way from how you deliver a speech and it’s human nature for us when we’re on a zoom screen I’ll just give you a small examples for him first. Right. It’s human nature to do this so right now I’m actually looking at you on the screen like, and I bet I’m not looking at your

Mike Malatesta  06:31

Yeah, I do that all the time I try to look at the person that I’m not looking at the camera right, you’re not looking at the camera right

Scott Mautz  06:38

disaster, and I keyed on both because you don’t read I’m literally looking right you read in the eyes, yeah, now I’m looking right at the camera and it probably feels like I’m open your eyes and I can barely even see you in my peripheral. So there’s a skill that you have to develop and you can’t see but out of focus right up here on my camera, I actually have a picture of an audience, right next to the camera, to help me feel like okay that’s the audience that I’m addressing and they know that I’m talking to them. You’ll also notice that this is a good ready to do a zoom call in a work environment, and this is probably it’s different for you, like I see you’re sitting down at the desk, but you’ll notice I’m standing up. Yeah, we know that now research has shown us over 55% of what we communicate, it’s probably closer to 60% of psychology research and neuroscience research has shown that 55 to 60% of what we communicate comes from body gestures, and being able to move your hands and pivot your head, and when you sit down on a desk, you know, and you’re like most people and you’re talking to the camera this way. Yeah, you lose an awful lot of communication so in speaking in a virtual world. I can’t get away with sitting at a desk, I have to be have a camera set up or I could still talk, I can pace a little bit, in some cases I have a separate camera, a second camera shot I don’t have it set up here so whereas I’m talking to you. I could hit a button and cut, you know,

Mike Malatesta  08:02

you get one. Yeah, okay profile, yeah yeah yeah

Scott Mautz  08:06

profile shots to mix up, because, you know, looking at a screen, as opposed to being there live when there’s all kinds of things for your senses that can be hard for 90 minutes and stare at a screen and watch somebody yeah and you have slides coming in, you know, for example, as well, it’s hard you know I’ve learned a lot about backgrounds. When I give a keynote, sometimes I will stand over here. And the curtains in the background will be gone, it’ll just be a blue wall and then I have a program that allows me to put the slides right here.

08:42

Okay,

Scott Mautz  08:42

you see him on the screen. Now I’m referring to the slides like this I’m pointing to the slides. Again, I’m not doing that today because this we’re just talking about.

Mike Malatesta  08:49

Yeah,

Scott Mautz  08:50

all kinds of technologies things different tricks and that’s a whole different skill set that you have to learn, and

Mike Malatesta  08:54

that’s a great thing you just mentioned there about the slides because normally, the slides take over the screen right and all of a sudden you’re gone, or on Zoom you’re this little tiny thing up here, and so it’s really hard to. Yeah, okay,

Scott Mautz  09:07

it’s hard to engage Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, because in the real world. Sometimes I’m speaking on yeah yeah I’ve got my slides up, but they’re 50 feet tall behind me, Yeah stage and you can still engage in both. Yeah, sure I want to become that tiny little box because you can’t even see my facial expressions. Yeah. So you learn things like that through this process and that’s that’s kind of how I’ve been making it happen last year, that makes sense.

Mike Malatesta  09:33

I wish I could stand when I do podcasts but I feel like I always like have to write notes and I feel like if I was standing and trying to write notes, it would be hard but I actually don’t like to sit and do them because I want to, you know, move around more and stuff too but I got to figure out a way to either remember everything that everybody says and be able to pull it back out at a moment’s notice. Or go without it and just, you know wing it but I’ll work on that and looking directly at the camera because I always want to look at the person but I’m not looking at the person that’s, that’s, that’s something I know I do that all the time so something that’s a great tip, but a lot of people do it because they don’t understand that looking at the person is not looking at the camera. It’s almost like

Scott Mautz  10:20

I still have to get I have a picture of an audience, right, I still have to work at it. So yeah, that’s all good, it’s all good.

Mike Malatesta  10:26

So one of the things that you, in addition to doing all that type of thing and also wrote a new book. During this time, or at least you put you are about to, to publish it, I mean it’s published, I guess not distributed yet till May, but, and I’m really intrigued by the title because so many books get written and they’re for like the leaders and entrepreneurs like how to be a CEO and or whatever, were how I became a CEO or how I ran my business or, or, you know, they’re usually focused on, you know the people that have already gotten to a spot where a lot of people aspire to get to in your book, leading from the middle, a playbook for managers to influence, up, down and across the organization which I think is a, it’s a mouthful of a subtitle but a great it’s a great subtitle because it, it’s, it basically says no matter where you are if you’re somewhere in the middle and that middle can be pretty big. You can get something powerful from from this book. So what what was the reason for you to, to, you know, choose that audience.

Scott Mautz  11:38

Yeah, well here’s how it happens to the brand new your show. For years, like for years. I’ve been planning to write this book and kind of a love note to middle managers and by the way for you I assume the book is called leading from the middle. And when I say middle manager. You know I don’t want your audience to opt out and say well that’s not me you know I’m too high in the organization or to lower the organization, a middle manager is anyone who has a boss, and is a boss, and to do their job well, has to influence, up, down and across the organization. So there are mid middle managers lower middle managers and upper middle managers, but even people in the C suite that aren’t quite to CEO can still be considered a middle manager because they have to manage off as part of their, their function across, and it creates a lot of unique dynamics. So, kind of how it came about is I’ve been planning for years I’ve been studying middle managers for over 16 years now, doing original research and doing all coming more surveys and interviews and original research and original studies that you can imagine and I always had it on the back burner to read the book. And then, what went before the actually the pandemic started, it started to kind of fall into crisis mode. When I was giving a keynote, you know, if you’re if you’re lucky and you’re any good and gave a keynote, sometimes people clamor, you know, for you afterwards they want to get a chance to meet you, they want to ask you some more questions, and I was finding more and more a theme of people that were in essence middle managers, struggling with all that they had going on in their life. How do they manage it all, and they felt like they were going on anywhere in their organization, they weren’t moving up as fast as they wanted to, they were creating the kind of culture, that leaves an imprint on people, they weren’t being the manager that they wanted to be in I was reaching almost crisis mode, that it was more and more calling to me that I have to speak to this forgotten audience in the middle of the backbone of any organization middle manager. Once the pandemic hit like and, you know, just being honest here. When as I was shifting and cover you know recovering to virtual keynotes, there was a window where my phone wasn’t ringing for keynotes, and I quickly said okay, this has got to be it. This has to be the time where I take, you know, 16 years of research and convert it in to the fleshed out book that I’ve been working on for a while. And so within a span of about nine months, you know, during the pandemic. I had more time to really focus on finish out my research and create this love letter to the middle managers, the book comes out on May 18 And you know national book you know bookstores across the nation and Amazon and all the places that you buy books so I’m very, very, very excited about I think this may be my best, most important work. Yeah.

Mike Malatesta  14:33

Okay, let’s saying something because it’s your at least your third book I know that. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, okay. So Scott, what it is I was listening to you there, you said, and I know you’re a data junkie. I know you love data because every one of your blog posts, has a data point to it, and it you know and it’s important and credibility you know all that and I just do want to remind people that from a credibility standpoint you’re not just some guy who’s talking to talk and writing a book on, you know, something he doesn’t know anything about I mean you spent many, many years running. billion dollar divisions of Procter and Gamble, full of a bunch of middle managers that were very important to your success into the success of the division and the company, so it’s not I just want to make sure that people understand that, again back to, you know, if you’re not a middle manager, why would you be interested in this well, because it’s important that they perform, and they know how to navigate all these things and that they’re always, you know, feeling like they’re as important as they are.

Scott Mautz  15:43

And they are critically important in them in reading from the middle I suppose spelling out Mike so that there’s convenient mistakes, you know, we know from data that the average middle manager, get ready for this what the average middle manager accounts for. On average, about 25% of the variation of revenue in any organization if there are not enough for profit. That’s three times more than, individuals that are coded as my sole job is to innovate. We also know by your study from Stanford showed that just replacing a poor middle manager with just an average middle manager boost productivity, more than if you actually added a net new person, to the team. We also know that middle managers, a good middle manager if you upgrade from a quarter to a good middle manager, you can increase employee retention by more than 20%, just from that one solid upgrade to a middle manager that’s how important these folks are to the organization and they have an incredible set of unique challenges that are born from the dynamic of not only having so much going on, but having to manage, up, down and across and create some very, very unique challenges Can I can I share one with you and your list yeah go for my surprise.

17:00

Yeah, go.

Scott Mautz  17:01

Yeah, most people say okay Scott I got middle manager I know why the job so hard. Look at all stuff I gotta do. I start in the middle, I got to make the jump down across the work never ends I’m dying over here I’m exhausted. For sure that’s part of it. But here’s what science is teaching us now this one may surprise you. Perhaps that number one right is the most challenging thing about being a middle manager has to do with it number of hats that you have to wear as a middle manager, it’s not just because it creates so much work. It’s because it creates what psychologists call micro switching roles. And these micro transitions happen all day every day, let me give you an example, if you’re a middle manager odds are, you have to switch from a deferential stance with your boss. Do an authoritative stance to employees to a collaborative stance with your peers. Sometimes all in the same meeting, yeah, sometimes it means you have to jump into this role you weren’t expecting to I think folks that have been in corporate all been there, done that, whether in a meeting and their boss walks into the meeting and all of a sudden I got to change modes and say oh okay my bosses in the room, I have to change into a different mode, you switch from high power low roles to low power roles from roles where you have tons of authority to no authority, and we’re now learning from neuroscience that this is exhausting. It’s not just the amount of work. It’s the mental kind of machinations that you have to go through the amount of micro transitions you have to make within a day, creates exhaustion and self identity problems, middle managers wondering well, so what is my role really I’m bouncing around all the time of what you know what really is my ROI, and then maybe that’s a challenge you didn’t expect what was your receiving that in the data.

Mike Malatesta  18:44

And that’s. So as you were you this micro switching I thought about multitasking is sort of similar right there’s a lot of studies now, and I can’t cite them like you can, But there’s a lot of studies now that say, you know people who think they’re a multi tasking are just, you know, kidding themselves you know there are, there are very, very few people who can do that reliably and well over any period of time, let alone long periods of time, although, but worth a lot of us sort of value our worth at how good we think we are at doing that right how fast I can respond to the email how fast I can respond to the text or how fast I can give an answer that I haven’t really thought thought through, but at least I’m fast with it you know that kind of thing. So,

Scott Mautz  19:33

what we now know and any neuroscientist was assaulted will tell you this, on average, hold on your head for this way, on average, you actually lose 40% of your productivity. When you are buying new you’re attempting to kind of parallel path like you’re describing when you’re when you’re trying to do that, what what the brain here’s what happens. What we’re really good at, we think that we can you know kind of multitask, what the brain is really good at is it’s related to what I was talking about is this tasks which it can change back and forth with astonishing speed, but it creates the illusion of productivity because you think you move from focusing on one thing to the next thing. And while your brain can switch that fast back and forth, it doesn’t retain anything from what your what it’s you know trying to retain this is why anybody that works at a manufacturing facility. What they you know what anyone who runs an assembly line will tell you is, you want to run products on that line, long as you can when you have to shut down the line, and change over to a new line that slows down productivity, you have to get the belts going back again and that’s why you try to run the lines as fast as you can without switching. Yeah, it’s no different with with is multitasking, we think we can change assembly lines just like that, without any cost, and it’s just not true. It’s just not true.

Mike Malatesta  20:51

And you, those stats you mentioned were remarkable that 25% of performance variation and just, just from going from a poor manager to good You said so. And I’d like to talk to you, have you talk a little bit more about that because there are so many, there’s like inertia that comes with having a team of managers, even if they’re if they’re, you know, if they’re not, you know just complete asses. Right, you’re, you’re kind of like well I’m gonna hang on to that person because I don’t want to lose that person and so many times when we lose someone was it but doing the job. Good. And then you replace them with someone in your life. Oh my gosh, I, I held on to that person, for years, thinking that they were good. And it turns out, the person that I have now blows that person away. Performance wise culture wise all of these things, but But you said that, to go from poor to good was like, I forget what you said 20% That I forget that. But, but,

22:04

yeah, no, no, it’s like,

Mike Malatesta  22:05

that’s not changing any that’s not changing anything else that’s just changing the person.

Scott Mautz  22:09

That’s right. That’s right, because it makes sense when you think about that’s that’s the equivalent of adding a net new person to the team because people in the middle. By default, they’re going to have the most experience, right, they’re gonna have been around the block the most often and they already know how to work the system. And when you can upgrade just in that role, that’s, that’s why does you know, my both leaving from middle that’s why I think of it as a love letter to the backbone of the organization. It’s like what you only with Mike it’s so easy to write a book about CEOs and what to do to get to the CEO by tomorrow, or all the way on the other end. If you want to be an entrepreneur and just blow off corporate America, or if you’re a new hire, how do you get off to a fast start we’ve forgotten this band of heroes in the middle. And I think that’s why I say this with all humility in the world. I think that’s why, even though the book comes out many times it’s already number one bestseller on Amazon, and as men in science because no one’s speaking for this band of how to help these middle managers and the unique challenges they face and I did, I did come prepared to share a few tips on that front as well I can’t just leave your listeners with all problems.

23:16

Yeah,

Mike Malatesta  23:18

so So you ask a question like that so you define middle managers, as anyone who is a boss and has a boss. Right. So how does one become skilled at influencing up down and across, because I think to myself, Wow, that’s a lot. Although, it’s a big ask. Yeah, so how do you walk us through it, what are your thoughts, how does it happen.

Scott Mautz  23:51

First I’ll address the problem that I brought up right I brought up this challenge of self identity and when you do when you have so many hats. Oh my god you feel burned out and you have to change stances all of that. What I found in research with over 3000 successful middle managers, was first of all from a mindset standpoint, Mike. Mike, my mindset standpoint. A lot of them, you know, I’d say probably 80% of them have found a way to mentally reframe that role, and they don’t look at it as 100 different hats that are interviewed or not connected at all, they look at first of all to, you know, a couple of reframes they sees 100 jobs that they have to do all belong to one job that they are uniquely suited to do it takes special skills to be a middle manager you should take pride in it, because the only successful middle managers are capable of viewing these 100 jobs as one integrated job, that’s the very nature of your job is to be able to switch around back and forth very quickly. I’ve heard some powerful reframes like this one was so powerful and made it into the book. I was talking to us in very successful middle manager in upstate Minnesota I think it was from my research, research, and he was telling me you don’t well it’s guys way I think my role. My job is to think like an engineer, but feel like an artist. And that’s how I approached the entire realm of being a middle manager and it makes sense when you think about being in the middle you have to have a very process oriented very procedural mindset to get things done, but at the same time you have to have empathy, because you’re at the intersection of the horizontal and vertical in the company of all the information flow, and all the emotional flow. You’re the one that can affect the mood of your boss. You’re the one that can make your employees feel self confident, you’re the one that can give a boost to your peers. So you’re in the middle of this emotional stoic rock. And so I you know I always thought that think like an engineer feel like an artist was was genius that’s just the book is packed with overall mindset tips but I want to get to your specific question now, my God. Okay, so how do I lead up down and across the course of the book, chapter by chapter goes through how to do that, I’m going to give you just one tip for how to lead up effectively how to lead down and how to lead across the time the actual, so I’ll proceed without your permission. Yeah, yeah. Yes, leading up, I’m gonna base each one of these on the most, you know, the most common questions I get, but what the data is screaming at me. So, leaving your boss is a big, hairy thing, right, and I haven’t, I have a ton of data, and examples in the book leading from the middle of how to do this, here’s one that may be the most important of them all. Get ready for this one. We found it out now I’m up to almost the study of 300 boss subordinate pairings, we studied them and their relationships. And we have found, We’re well past 80% of them over 80% of those boss subordinate relationships, we discovered material breaches in basic understanding of expectations. Despite the fact that the employee before we started the work that you clear on what your boss wants, and they would say, yeah, and we’d ask the boss. Are you sure your employer understands what you want what’s expected of you and they say, yeah, yeah, well we found it over 80% of the cases that was not true. They weren’t matching up, and this is lines up with what Gallup teaches us as well Gallup data will show you that half of all employees in the United States and around the globe, know it, have what is expected of them, at work, so you can’t lead up effectively with your boss if you don’t start by challenging a very core assumption which is, don’t assume you’re as clear as you think you are on what’s expected of you, and I talked about a very important tool called The Good to Great Green which is to symbolize this might sit down with your boss and say okay, let’s say you’re working on leadership, boss. Tell me what good leadership looks like let’s literally write down the definition. Great. Now tell me, what great leadership looks like. And what happens is you force specificity specificity, because research shows on average when you set expectations, most of us it’s a very lazy endeavor. We stay broad, we don’t get specific enough. And then what happens the employees interpret things that they want. So you have to do to really sit down and get crystal clear on the expectations. And step number one of managing effectively, this makes sense before I move, you know, to the magic Yeah, yeah,

Mike Malatesta  28:24

I kinda like an example of that, like, how would you walk somebody through that Good to Great grid.

Scott Mautz  28:32

Yeah and I have, in fact I’m going to offer up a toolkit at the end of this where people can see an example. Okay, completed good a great grant but it’s literally imagine a grid and you know and one of the other comments is great, and then on the far side of the column, you just have different things that are important to you and more leadership initiative, follow through. And then you literally go through cell by cell and say Okay boss let’s let’s move on to initiative. When I take initiative when once you is good, and then you sit down and you you write down, you know, an example I’ll give you a very

Mike Malatesta  29:07

specific data point the example would be a data point like initiative means. Okay.

Scott Mautz  29:14

Here’s an example. Yeah. Great Britain chart that I filled out with a team. We wanted to get really clear on good priorities setting in great priorities. So for good priority setting, We agreed as a team to a definition that I call track of macro management. That means you know you know the trash compactor is a Yeah, squeezes down trash and was more like you. Imagine if you thought of your work that way. And you said I’m going to start saying no to some things, so the size of the cube of work that I work on gets squished down. That’s pretty good because frankly, like most of us aren’t very good at saying no to new stuff you just keep piling up in our cube of work gets bigger, so we agreed that good priority setting was trash compactor management, but then we said, great priority setting is accordion management, accordion is an instrument, a musical instrument that you play like this, that says Yeah. Imagine if you thought of your workload that way that, okay, at some point I understand we have to expand the workload, we’ve got a big customer call coming up, we’ve got a big meeting with the CEO, everyone’s gonna have to work more hours. Okay, we got to add priorities, which can’t keep expanding the accordion Mike, you’re gonna burn everybody out so you can track any quieter times you rescue recuperate you celebrate you engage in learning opportunities for personal growth, you do less you take out less, and then you expand again and then you can track it, so we decided that was great. Priority said. And you know what I always tell folks when I walk them through example like this is, it doesn’t even matter if you agree with those definitions I almost prefer that you don’t, because what’s really important is that you understand the hole that exists in setting expectations, and you use a simple tool like this go to great grid to spell out your own definitions that are important to you and your loss right. Does that make sense.

Mike Malatesta  31:03

It makes sense. Yeah. How do you. So how do you get through in that type of a discussion. So it’s one thing to have that type of discussion and then you say you get away, You go off and you’re working right and there comes a point where you think, okay, I need to say no to this, not in a trash compactor way but in an accordion way but I still need to say no or not yet or something like that. How do you say if you’re going down I’m not saying that it’s the right thing but it’s easy right, no. So, if you’re on. But when you’re going up or across, how do you how do you how do you recommend that people navigate that

Scott Mautz  31:51

triangle of bargaining, and here’s what that means, you know, you know the old. I guess it’s kind of an old, I don’t know if it’s a wives tale, or the old story the agreement.

Mike Malatesta  32:03

That’s where all the ships go yeah disappear. Yeah,

Scott Mautz  32:05

they disappear. If you think of work. Work works in a triangle and guess what happens you just keep getting work added on, and any hope any semblance of prioritization disappears into this triangle, the more and more people ask you, so you have to think of a different triangle to do what I call the Emunah triangle bargaining, and it has three points on the triangle, you know, imagine a triangle here by the slime like of course you’ve learned today, but I’d be over here talking. So imagine there’s a triangle. You got time. You’ve got scope, and you’ve gotten resources. Those are the three variables that you can push and pull back on. Right. And you could say okay, I understand you want this work done, give me more time. I just didn’t want this work done. How about we reduce the scope because I can’t get to all of that. I understand you want this work done. How about giving me some more resources and if that does still doesn’t work, you still have the authority to give a different Yes, which is, Yes, I hear you. I know that you want that work done. So what I’m going to do is I’m going to have, you know, have somebody else on the team do this because of this reason and because if I, if I take that on. Other things are going to drop in and that’s not going to be good so you’re given a different yes to the request. So those are a couple of tips that I normally give people that and where they face that situation.

Mike Malatesta  33:23

Okay and you, you would recommend I’m assuming that they do that right away, not, not the day before it’s due. Sir, sort of us. You’ve accepted it, but then even knowing you couldn’t do it and then the day before or the day after you’re like, ah, yeah I didn’t get to. Yeah, okay.

Scott Mautz  33:41

Excuse it’s too late,

Mike Malatesta  33:42

right. Okay, so let’s let’s shift to leading down you were about to go there before I

Scott Mautz  33:48

know no worries so now leaving that what does that mean you know what that means if you have to please every point. In case if you’re wanting to thinking okay well that’s great Scott but I’m not a boss yet I’m not a manager of others. What I found is, especially in today’s work world, we are promoting people faster and faster than ever for millennials, it’s a key signpost as a sign of progress. So, you know, data shows that, on average, we are starting to use titles and progression of a food chain. Inspiration for people. So even if you aren’t a manager of others yet there’s a darn good chance. Prior to prior generations, you will be sooner than you think you are, and you may as well build those skills now. I’m going to answer this in the most common question I get. There’s so much in leading from the middle of the book my new book that talks about how to manage down, I want to focus on the one the biggest question that I get is, okay, I’ve made it. I have people reporting to me now. How do I give them feedback. I’m terrified of that. And, you know, the truth is most of us like we’re not wired for giving feedback, well, we just aren’t, and especially not the people that work for us, there’s a whole host of problems that we get into that I talk about leaving for the middle. I’m going to give you the enormous six quick quick tips that you got to do to give feedback great right off the top my head. You got to be specific. Right. My grandpa used to tell me that when bread and eat nutritious. Think of feedback, the same way when you give white bread feedback it’s bland and generic, that doesn’t help anybody you got to give feedback, specific granular, nutritious, otherwise it does nobody any good. So you got to be specific, you got to be sincere when it comes from the hardest sticks in the mind. You got to be calibrated. Maybe you got to let people know when you give them the feedback, you got to give no context so let’s say Mike you and I were working on us standing up we were talking about this earlier. So I tell you hey Mike you know you got to stand up more in your podcasts, you know, Then I have to put context on it and say, but like, you know, most podcast hosts, sit down. It’s very natural for the state that you’re in right now, so don’t you know, don’t worry about that just, let’s work on it together over time, right, or I’ve got to say, like you don’t get it, every podcast host but you were standing up to deliver their podcast, you got to catch up, but those are different contexts that I just gave you so you have to be calibrated because otherwise what will happen. I promise you, the employer will take it to the worst possible scenario,

Mike Malatesta  36:13

yeah you put, put me on the defensive, you put me on the defensive with the second one when the first one you didn’t.

Scott Mautz  36:19

Yeah, Yeah, no, don’t take it to the worst place possible so you got to be calibrated. Couple of proportionate. Guess what we generally do more good things or bad things. And we now know, research is showing us a super clear. The best ratio is five to one. For every one piece of corrective feedback you’re going to give, give five pieces of supporting feedback that seems to be the sweet spot for most people, to still be there corrective feedback and be able to do something with it well. And then you also got to be timely. Right after the back feedback after the fact. Feedback is matter of fact feedback, and you got to be tailor, you got to tell it to people in the way that they want to hear it. My experience Mike has been there 300 people in the world. The first kind of people want to receive feedback. Just give me the bad stuff first, right now, right can’t enjoy anything else that’s me right, give me hard. Then I can enjoy the good stuff. The second kind of people in the world are the people that want to compliment sandwich. Well Mike, give me, give me some love. Then give me the hard stuff, then round it out with another bond oh you know compliments.

Mike Malatesta  37:22

Yeah, sure, sure.

Scott Mautz  37:24

Yeah, it’s true. And then the third kind of people in this world, are the ones that say they want that first guy, but they really want the second. They want the compliment sandwich. Just know your people and how they want to receive. And so, so there’s some power tips for managing down through chewing through great feedback.

Mike Malatesta  37:39

And that’s, I appreciate you, given that those, those tips because all of those things. Even so, I find that a lot of people struggle, not only with giving the feedback but they’ve heard of the compliment sandwich. They just don’t know how to give it. Right, it’s kind of like the compliment sandwich at the it sometimes can come off where the compliment is the person is like that doesn’t really feel like a compliment and in the critique is like. And where did that come from I never know but no one ever said that to me before and then there’s something at the end they’re not even listening anymore to the compliment at the end. The other part of the sandwich.

Scott Mautz  38:17

My boss just bashed me what do I do three different things.

Mike Malatesta  38:21

Yeah. Right right right right. Do you mind if I shift gears for a second. So you have this, you have, you have a daily email or not daily, it’s like twice a week. Is it the once

Scott Mautz  38:37

weekly it just launched the newsletter on LinkedIn.

Mike Malatesta  38:41

Yeah so, but you had something before but that’s what I’m referring to is this sort of lead on thing, and I just, I just got it the other day, maybe yesterday I don’t know I think it was yesterday morning, and you saw I was like, Oh, this is kind of neat so I saved it because I wanted to read it so I could talk to you about it if it meant something to me and it did. And it because in there, you talked about imperfections and implementations, and it was and what I liked about it is you had the, you know, sort of a bite size summary. And then, as is, everything with you, Scott. If you want more data, you know, hit the thing and you go to your blog post with more data or something but, but I was hoping you could take us through the I guess the key tool in this was the 5050 rule about making decisions. And I find that I struggle, everybody struggles with this, but, but a lot but but it’s one of the things that I think really holds back managers at all levels, is understanding how to make a decision that keeps things moving

Scott Mautz  39:57

forward. Yeah I can I can I can help with that. So, first of all just kind of set up, you’re referring to a brand new newsletter or new form of free content that any of your listeners can get it’s called lead. It’s about leaving yourself and others. and the short read format. Each week, one insight, one implementation. Excuse me, and one imperfection. In other words one Crispin side based on data. One imperfection, a mistake that I’ve made as a leader, and then one implementation one tool a strategy or tip that you can use to help you make yourself or others brilliantly. And what you’re referring to, and you know if folks wanted they can find it on LinkedIn and subscribe to it, or if they go to Scott mounts.com, you’ll find my blog where you can sign up for me Don and my longer form blog, and what you’re talking about is a rule that I talked about called the 5050 rule that is actually something I also talk about meaning from the middle, because it’s particularly powerful for middle managers, here’s what it is. It’s about helping you know, we hear so often of how easily we get overwhelmed at work especially middle managers, it’s difficult to make decisions. It’s difficult to focus on anything, everyone else’s urgent becomes your urgent Yeah. How do you get out of that cycle, and I, we have found the 5050 rule is incredibly powerful here’s what it says it says, when things are craziest for you. When so much is coming at you spend 50% of your time on pragmatism and 50% of your time on possibilities. Here’s what that means and here’s what that does. If you spend 50% of your time you’re like okay, thanks for calling, keep my head above water, everyone else is urgent, it’s become my urgent, what do I focus on, draw a line in the sand 50% of your time is pragmatist. Okay, I’ve only been to a lot half of my time to getting stuff done here, so what am I going to do okay that forces me to prioritize. I’m not going to take that on, I’m going to take this, I’m going to put it in this order be pragmatic. But what we know from research is when we’re busiest what happens is, we forget about possibilities and opportunities we spend all our time, bouncing from thing to thing trying to cross off things our to do list because that feels good. We spent time from my boss said this is due tomorrow. Oh my pure the industrial the OMA, and we spend our time flying all around and we miss the possibilities and the opportunities that are present in our life, all around us. And so what happens is when you spend 50% of your time of pragmatism. 50% of your time I’m committed to. I’m going to say no to some things so I could spend some time on seeing you know opportunities, 50% equals 100, which means you have zero time left to screw around being indecisive, you have zero time left to focus on things that aren’t going to help you and move you and your ship forward, you’re forced to be pragmatic, you’re forced to not miss opportunities on the table, incredibly powerful rule psychology base that I try to prescribe to everybody. Does that make sense, Mike.

Mike Malatesta  43:04

Yeah, I’m trying to figure out how. So how do I categorize the pragmatic, part of it too because it seems to me like bucket and scheduling is what I heard from you, so you know we’ve heard people talk about you know you’ve got Do you got urgent, important, you know, and these other sort of designations. But the pipe but, but, as I was listening to you I wanted to get your some clarity from you on how you think about that, but also in the possibilities it made me think about calendar right because if you don’t make time for possibilities. You don’t get the possibilities because the pragmatic, or what you what you make pragmatic always take over there’s never like there’s never time to squeeze in like I’m going to squeeze in some possibility time, when I see an opening, well that that opening time, six times, right. Yeah, yeah. So how do you just from, from a tactical standpoint, how do you how do you how do you coach that how do you think about it.

Scott Mautz  44:06

Yeah, I can give you. I’ll give you two real quick examples because you know 100 Nice pragmatism and possibility. Now there’s a host of tools right for each one, each bucket that I didn’t get into, but if you look in pragmatism that’s really about you right on top of it. That’s about committing to being far more productive than you currently are now. If you cut your time and half and say 50% of my time is going to be spent on being pragmatic I got to be a lot more productive. Now you’re going to start to experiment with different ways to become more productive. This is where productivity tools can come into play for you and you have to commit to trying different productivity tools to enhance your productivity perfect example. I started with a 5050 mindset. You know when I teach this in my 50% pragmatism bucket and led me to practicing the Pomodoro Technique, it’s a technique within the productivity pool that’s very powerful for somebody like me and I’ll just give you an example, right and this is just one of the many productivity tips that I talked about right about Pomodoro technique is very powerful, especially for someone like me who has to produce a lot of written content, but that’s pretty applications. Okay but what that is is you literally, you take a, you can use a kitchen timer, then you set it for 25 minutes, and then you were without disruption for me it’s writing, I write, write, write, write, write, write, write, minutes, gain the kitchen timer goes off, you get up. Five minutes, you walk away from your work and you don’t think about, you know, look at your email, you don’t do anything to get a glass of water you walk around the house, whatever you have to do you clear your head for five minutes, You come back and get 25 minutes you set the timer, back and forth, this has been proven. I know that Navy fighter pilots use this as a technique to help them stay more focused in their training. When you know when they’re training to learn how to fight or flight executive team ginormous plans, and I found that to be incredibly productive to help me be more pragmatic and focused on my time, and that’s just one productivity tool, right, so now you go to the other 50% Okay, okay, I hear you’re scalping like how do I find time to look at possibilities in the midst of all this chaos. Well that’s where it comes down to having really goals, and a very clear vision for where you want your business to go. A lot of times of proxy for possibility is going back to the vision of what you’re trying to accomplish on your business, and rarely getting caught in the thing of the moment that you know someone else’s urgent, you stop and say okay, now’s the time the slice of time where I’m going to go back and revisit our goals or objectives. Our vision is anything being thrown at me right now going to help us progress in any of those things. A lot of times, Mike will write a vision will stick it in a cover, and we will look at it again for another year.

Mike Malatesta  46:47

Yeah, of course,

Scott Mautz  46:48

the annual vision setting ceremony. And when the it’s not just a vision, you know, it’s the goals that we set the objectives that we have, it’s the processes and procedures that we spell out that we have to follow through, when you revisit all that allows you to be clear and more in tune with possibilities, as does spending more time externally focused. Part of my 50% Possibility also has to do with reading, what other what competitors are doing. Doing competitive analysis, getting outside of my own head in the olan priors of the day, to spend time on spotting possibilities, so you can train yourself to get better,

Mike Malatesta  47:25

and you use that 25 Five on both sides of the equation, then you use that for pragmatic stuff and you use that for possibility stuff as well.

Scott Mautz  47:33

You absolutely can. Yeah, it’s a productivity tool that cuts across that just for any work that you have to do. I happen to put it in a pragmatic bucket, because that’s kind of where it belongs as a productivity tip but yeah you absolutely can’t

Mike Malatesta  47:44

Well there’s there’s so that’s it that’s really great information because I think, like, it’s, you have to. I find that a lot of companies that people conditioned themselves or they’ve been conditioned that I, If I don’t respond to somebody in 10 minutes I’m gonna lose my job, or they’re gonna think I’m not working or whatever, and I, and, and I get that and there are some people that expect that and I don’t know why but there are some people that expect that. And there are some roles where you just have to do that, at least for a period of time during the day you know if you’re in client service or something you have to answer the phones, you know, but, but a lot of people, I’m not afraid to talk about. They don’t know how to focus for 25 minutes, they don’t know they don’t, and it’s scary right because if I have to focus for 25 minutes that means I have to get productive Scott. And if I can, instead, pretend I’m going to focus, and instead keep my phone up so that if the texts or rings or my email notification goes off which is another thing you should get rid of my email notification goes, I’m needed I’m valuable, and it keeps me from really doing what you said, you know, just being productive. If you spend two half hour, pointing. For example on that 25 It feels to me like, Really guarded on that first of all, nobody’s paying for that hour. And second, you are going to get more done in that hour, then you would have gotten done all day and you still have the rest of the day to deal with all of those other things.

Scott Mautz  49:28

That’s right, Mike and what you know what I want to make sure your listeners take away the science has done the heavy lifting for you notice I said, 25 five. Notice I didn’t say, 90, or 65, people said why can’t work that well we know that science has now shown the optimal quantity of time where you can work with our focus if you’re convinced. Specifically, it’s 25 minutes, then take a break. Check your email notification whatever you need to do, and then go back and lock in again for 25 minutes because we know past that human nature kicks in and it’s very difficult to maintain, intense scrutiny and focus right, so there’s, there’s really no excuse, I mean anybody can focus for 25 minutes at a time. Right, especially if your job.

Mike Malatesta  50:16

That’s kind of how do you, you mean your, everything is full of research and data how do you do it, how do you do the research, you mentioned talking to these two, you know this person in Minnesota and whatever. But, you know you’re busy too. How do you do, how do you do good research so that everything that you’re creating, you can back up what you always can with, you know, resources like Don’t, don’t you don’t have to take my word for this you can research it, you know here, which is very that that adds a lot of credibility to what people think and what they’re telling people to consider doing.

Scott Mautz  50:54

I appreciate that Mike I tried to bring that data onto stage too whenever I do a keynote and all my books and the answer is you have to you have to be committed to it is a strategy. And it’s also very very interesting work to me and inspires me because I find truths that you can’t find just through experience, you know, and of course I bring my experience to the table, of course, we all do that. But so you know I spent an awful lot of time and conducting original research, either firms that I can hire where I go to them with a hypothesis. I’m trying to prove or disprove this based on my experience, is it true or is that not true. And you can hire teams of researchers to go out and do that. I also have, I’m very blessed and able to be on faculty at Indiana University’s Kelley School of Business, I teach in our executive education program and every time I conduct a class, it’s like a Living Learning Lab. Always doing survey, questioning, asking, I’m always doing. There’s a lot of online survey tools that you can use as a researcher. There’s just so many vehicles I spent time looking at originally I’ve gotten very good at

52:02

available on the

Scott Mautz  52:04

true continent that I know this is where you find academic paperwork on this topic, and it’s now, it’s just part of how I do things, Mike gets his, but you know some people enjoy scrolling through Twitter in the morning and you know, reading the morning news and I’ll do that for about two minutes and then I’m deep into research again and I’m always going through the latest publications that are out there, or conducting my own original research do interviews, surveys, and vehicles that I pay to use or through a classroom that I teach, okay. It’s all about commitment.

Mike Malatesta  52:36

Well, um, you know, from my experience, whether it’s your books or whether it’s your newsletter your blog. If you want to short circuit. You know one doing research or two trying to figure out on your own, what you should be doing either as a leader or a manager mean going to your stuff is just

Scott Mautz  52:56

phenomenal. So appreciate that. Yeah, appreciate I try to be the intersection of insight from research and experience. That’s what I tried so I appreciate that you appreciate that, thank you.

Mike Malatesta  53:06

So you mentioned earlier, Scott that you have a special offer that that you want to make what’s, what’s that all about,

Scott Mautz  53:12

well yeah just for your listeners and if they go to the book, lead from the middle, is coming out May, 18, and very blessed it’s already hit number one in Amazon, in management science and you know I want. I want your readers to be able to access that. And so they go to Scott mounts.com, and they do Scott mounts.com, that’s SEO TT, ma utc.com, forward slash free tools, no spaces in between that Scott mounts. COMM forward slash free tools, they will be able to download a 30 page companion workbook that goes along with leading from the middle, and we know what we found, you know, not surprisingly, from research is that for some of us, we process, learn, and can hold and retain information much better, more able to fill in the blank to do multiple choice to engage with the material beyond just reading it so this is a 30 page long with reading from the middle, and then it also gives your listeners access to my free leadership and self leadership toolkit to engage in more data insight driven and personal experience base flavor content for your readers, and for your listeners. Awesome.

Mike Malatesta  54:29

Well thank you for that. Appreciate it. So what, uh, what do you want to leave us with here Scott. Besides, you know, getting the book which everyone should do is get the book and they should follow Scott as well. And subscribe to his newsletter and, and, and read the blog, what else, what else should not want to leave people whether they’re middle managers or whether they’re, you know, at the top or whatever, based on all the work that you’ve done and all the, all the success that you’ve had, you know, helping people create better organizations.

Scott Mautz  55:04

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity I want to go back to your brand, Mike, you know, how did happen and I want to share folks, folks, you know this thought and this isn’t about the you know the new book leading from the middle this is about experience in life and what I’m encouraging people now in my writing, to think about, you know, someday you’re gonna look back on this incredible pandemic that we’ve been through and we’re going our own way we’re gonna ask her well how did it happen, how did it come about and how do we happen to get through that a lot.

Mike Malatesta  55:30

Yeah,

Scott Mautz  55:31

that’s pretty natural. And, you know, knock on wood, but it appears the world is heading towards a phase, certainly in the United States at least where we’re going to start seeing light at the end of the tunnel, you know, we’re now getting 3 million to 4 million people a day being vaccinated, and before you know, I don’t mean to belittle any of the problems that have come up, or any of the losses that we’ve had from this pandemic is unforgettable in our lifetime. But there is a window emerging, where it’s an inflection point where pretty soon, you know, not so distant future. We’re gonna have to, you know, we’re gonna have the pandemic on the other side of us, and it’s a perfect time, an inflection point for you to stop and say, How did it happen in my life at this point, things started to change for the better for me. I look back and say, the pandemic is about to go in with it. Old habits that I want to leave behind as well, it’s the perfect time we know that habits change. When people change the environment around them. And when they work hard and they practice at it right because changing habits is very very difficult but you have to have a major reason to be able to do it right and coming out of this pandemic I encourage people to say okay this is the inflection point, whatever that thing is in your life Mike that you want it to do, whatever that thing is in your life that we’re holding your listeners back. This is the perfect time to say, look back and remember how I made this new phase in my life happened. It’s that moment that I decided to do X to stop being afraid of y to stop making assumptions Z. And we know that assumptions need to uncover beliefs and beliefs lead to convictions and convictions lead us to a smaller world. So, use the moment right now to look back and say, Yeah, I remember how it happened and I under this better phase in my life because it’s the perfect time to do it.

Mike Malatesta  57:21

That’s phenomenal. That’s phenomenal to leave us with Scott, thank you so much. Thanks for coming back on the show, thanks for writing this book and I really appreciate the conversation today, I appreciate you sharing and you’re making a big difference.

Scott Mautz  57:34

Thanks so much. Thanks for your doing. Love your show. Keep it rolling.

Mike Malatesta  57:40

Okay, cool. That’s great.

Scott Mautz  57:43

That’s good. Yeah, I think I said this before, but you have a very good way about you you flow with the discussion, you build off of it in ways that make sense, you don’t worry about sticking to some, you know, for long scripted appreciate it makes it easier as a guest and frankly I think it’s 10 times more or less honorable. Oh, thank you so that that I go on. So,

Mike Malatesta  58:04

thank you. Have you found podcast to be a great way for you to sort of get your brand out there and promote the book as well or is it is it.

Scott Mautz  58:13

Yeah, I think it is, you know yeah of course, of course, part of it is promoting the book for sure my game you can’t do this, if you want to do what I do for a living. You have to get over the distaste for self promotion, yes have to do it, but it’s maybe the best way to serve my mission, because yes, I get to promote the book but I get to share thoughts, and in I hope insights in ways that make people challenge their own assumptions, and a podcast is a very natural format to do that because when you think about when people are listening, and this was a project, we’ve done research on this. We know that when people are listening to research, 65% of the time and 70% of the time, they are not multitasking, in a way that requires the brain to engage in two ways. You know, they might be exercising on their bike, they might be going for a walk, they might be, but that those are all low mental energy thinks that nothing’s competing for your attention. Yeah, with a podcast. So, I find that a very powerful way to change minds, and that’s what I like doing.

Mike Malatesta  59:18

I agree. I mean I my own aside I get so much of my information and thoughts and at least sparks of things for me to think about possibilities for example from listening to other people, and in and in, in a just such a great way you know it’s just like people just like being on the phone with each other, you know, it’s sort of changed the whole dynamic of who will take my call. There’s, there’s so many people that I’ve had a chance to talk to you now that if I was just like calling them up in the old world and being like oh hey, I just want to talk to you know about how to happen, they’d be like, you know, I got better things to do. So yeah, it’s really

Scott Mautz  1:00:03

glad to hear you say like that, you know, maybe I had some very small role in starting to you know get you to ask, you know, thought leading experts to your show because you have the right to do that and you might be surprised, you know, how big of a fish you can land on your show. Just because you know it’s proven very quickly that podcasts are going like crazy. Yeah, and they’re very efficient vehicle for people that want to promote the things that they want to promote so don’t you know don’t be afraid to to aim high, and you know, the biggest thing that I can say is, I read something that said that Apple has 1.5 million podcasts, right now, in the, in their library. Over 60% of them haven’t posted a new episode in more than six months. Yeah, so just staying consistent like you are right off the battle, and so good for you for doing that.

Mike Malatesta  1:00:54

Yeah I like I said 175 or something I think today is so I know I’ve beaten most people at staying in the game now it’s just a matter of, am I adding value to people it’s one thing for me to stay in the game but you know so that’s what I’m focused on now is how can I bring the best, the most value and stuff that interests me to. So, um, I got to ask for you, one could, um, could you have Deb send me like a nice photo of the book cover.

1:01:24

Oh yeah, sure, sure,

Mike Malatesta  1:01:27

cuz I’ll post a post on LinkedIn about that. Be even before the podcast come out comes out, I’ll make sure I get the podcast out for you. You know in advance of the of the May teeth, drop as well. And if, if you’re willing to leave me a review and a rating on Apple podcasts, that would be phenomenal as

Scott Mautz  1:01:50

well. I’ll do the same for me on Amazon for my book that will be, we’ll do an Amazon review or a review trade.

Mike Malatesta  1:01:59

Yeah, I think, yeah, I’ll buy the book because I think Amazon makes you buy the book and you can leave a review, I think, so I’ll get

Scott Mautz  1:02:07

oh yeah that may have changed, either that like certified to dues or not but yeah, because

Mike Malatesta  1:02:10

I tried to do one for a woman in that, that is writing a book I’m writing a book to with the same with scribe media I don’t know if you’ve ever heard a scribe but, but, um, so they provided the book to read it. When I went to post on Amazon they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t allow the post, because I couldn’t, I think I couldn’t. They didn’t say they didn’t, they didn’t say you had to buy it but when I posted it they rejected the post so I thought, Oh, I wonder.

Scott Mautz  1:02:37

That might be the case. At least when your book comes out, I’ll return the post it, yeah. For sure, yeah, I’ve got it written down, out, in fact, excuse me hang out for my next appointment. I’ll go on Apple podcast right away.

1:02:53

Okay, cool.

1:02:54

Take care of yourself.

Mike Malatesta  1:02:55

I appreciate it very grateful.

Scott Mautz  1:02:58

Thank you as always Mike okay I really enjoyed the chance to talk to you man and I will wish you continued success with your podcasts and don’t be afraid to reach out if I can help you and your business in some way.

Mike Malatesta  1:03:08

Okay, you as well, Scott, appreciate it. Enjoy your afternoon.

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