Stacey Gordon

Stacey Gordon, MBA, The Power of Meeting People Where They Are (#211)

Stacey Gordon is the Founder, CEO, and Chief Diversity Strategist at Rework Work. There, she focuses on reworking how companies work, including how they inclusively recruit, hire and engage employees, effectively creating inclusion and belonging for all. Her role at the company gives her the opportunity to coach and counsel executive leaders on DEI strategies for the business while presenting an innovative approach to education.

Talking of which, Stacey has created the second-highest viewed course at LinkedIn Learning called “Unconscious Bias”, which has reached more than 1 million learners. Such course has been translated into four languages and has been featured by LinkedIn, Microsoft, and Virgin America. Stacey has pursued her mission of bringing inclusivity and belonging to the workplace also with her book, UNBIAS: Addressing Unconscious Bias at Work, which has reached #1 on several Amazon New Release lists.

From Recruiter to Changing Workplaces’ Culture with DEI

Stacey Gordon has always been interested in recruiting. No matter her position or the company she was working at, she always had something to say about the way they’d hire. This innate pull, together with a series of events, brought her to being a recruiter. She found great joy in helping people get the job of their dreams, but she also started noticing diverse people had more difficulties getting certain positions. That would often end up in them getting jobs that they didn’t love. As a recruiter, Stacey felt such outcomes were not aligned with her inner self, as she was thinking more about bringing diversity to a company than about the candidate’s fulfillment. That’s when she started focusing on DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) and not just on the recruitment aspect, which led her to found Rework Work.

The impact she has reached with changing workplace culture with Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion is tremendous, and she has helped countless companies in creating an inclusive work environment.

And now here’s Stacey Gordon.

Show Notes

[3:13] How’d it happen for Stacey Gordon?
[6:55] The journey to becoming a recruiter
[10:10] On starting her own business
[15:37] Stacey and her law school experience
[20:34] What brought Stacey to the states?
[22:38] All about Rework Work
[25:25] How Stacey actually helps companies
[34:00] How many companies get it “right”?
[43:55] Conscious vs. unconscious bias
[45:23] On the process of writing UNBIAS and what was Stacey’s goal
[49:55] Wasted energy and growing/maintaining Stacey’s energy
[51:34] Diving deeper into LinkedIn learning https://www.linkedin.com/learning/
[55:31] The challenges with resume
[1:01:35] What is Stacey shooting for?
[1:04:31] Outro

Full transcript below

Video on The Power of Meeting People Where They Are

Stacey Gordon’s Path to Diversity & Inclusion

Visit ReworkdWork.com to Learn How to Create a More Diverse & Equitable Workplace

LinkedIn Learning Course: “Unconscious Bias”

Get Stacey Gordon’s Book, UNBIAS

Connect with Stacey Gordon on LinkedIn

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Podcast with Stacey Gordon, MBA. The Power of Meeting People Where They Are.

TRANSCRIPT – HOW’D IT HAPPEN – STACEY GORDON, GUEST

31

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Mike Malatesta: hey everybody welcome back to the how to happen podcast i’m so happy to have you here, as I am every episode, thank you for listening, thank you for subscribing, thank you for sharing.

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Mike Malatesta: I am fulfilling my promise to you today with another amazing guest Stacey Gordon joins me on the podcast Stacey welcome.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Thank you, thank you.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So I wouldn’t be here.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah Thank you so let me, let me tell you a little bit about Stacy and why you’re going to be excited that she’s here today, so Stacey Gordon is the founder CEO and chief diversity strategist at rework work it’s a great name for a company, by the way.

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Mike Malatesta: Leading at the intersection of diversity, inclusion and workplace culture Stacy focuses on reworking the way companies work, including how they recruit hire and engage employees to effectively create inclusion and belonging for all.

9

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Mike Malatesta: Stacy is the creator of the second highest viewed course at linkedin learning where she’s reached more than 1 million unique learners.

10

00:01:14.970 –> 00:01:27.600

Mike Malatesta: Are unconscious bias course has been featured by linkedin Microsoft and Alaska airlines and probably a bunch of others, because I looked at the website and there’s a ton of high level names down there so.

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Mike Malatesta: it’s also been translated into at least four languages.

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Mike Malatesta: Which is kind of cool that had to be kind of fun to see that yeah.

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Mike Malatesta: So Stacy teaches in the Business School at pepperdine university, where she also earned her MBA she’s been recognized by pepperdine as a top 40 over 40 leader.

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Mike Malatesta: By the Los Angeles business journal, for her work in diversity and by forbes as a top three business leader who spoke out about diversity and inclusion.

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Mike Malatesta: Stacy is also the author of unbias subtitle addressing unconscious bias at work, the book has been number one on several Amazon new release lists and you can find her book on Amazon or wherever you buy your books.

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Mike Malatesta: You can learn more about Stacy at her website rework work COM linkedin at Stacy Gordon and maybe she’ll share somewhere else to get in touch with her later, but anyway Stacy.

17

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Mike Malatesta: I start every show same question, and that is how did happen for you.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): there’s so many ways, I can answer that question.

19

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Mike Malatesta: that’s why I loved your question, because you can take it anywhere you want.

20

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I think you know I think i’d have to say it happened, for me, when I was recruiting because I used to you know I really enjoy the idea about recruiting right, the idea that you can be a person that helps somebody find a job that they love.

21

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): and enjoy working and I was helping.

22

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I wanted to say clients that’s not the right word but really the candidate, because my client I was a third party recruiter so my client is technically the company right.

23

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Sure, but I was helping a candidate, with a position, and it was just hoop after hoop after hoop that I had to jump through for this gentleman and I realized, you know after like third or the fourth hoop that it was because it was black.

24

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I was having to do all this extra work and I thought to myself wow if I was a different recruiter if I cared more about my.

25

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): My fee, I would have dumped him a long time ago and gotten somebody else who would be they’d be much quicker to hire.

26

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And I would have gotten paid faster.

27

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And this gentleman would be out of a job and that’s really what made me realize that wow I was doing the wrong thing because I was helping companies to find these diverse candidates, but I was also helping to put diverse candidates into workplaces that sucked.

28

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Mike Malatesta: hmm okay that cuts right to it.

29

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Mike Malatesta: So.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): kind of how I.

31

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Mike Malatesta: Okay that’s cool.

32

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Mike Malatesta: man.

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Mike Malatesta: So where did well, first of all the companies that were hiring you at the time, were they looking for diverse candidates, because you kind of kind of seem like you said that.

34

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Mike Malatesta: But then, they also presented challenges, when you presented diverse candidate, where is that what you’re specifically looking for just they were just looking for someone.

35

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): They really weren’t they just wanted.

36

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): A higher, but my you know, in the way that I work just innately That was what I was doing was I would find diverse candidates, I would give people the opportunity I would get them in front of companies that maybe they wouldn’t have gotten in front of before.

37

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And I really enjoyed being able to do that work, but it was a fight all the time.

38

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I never noticed how much of a fight it was until.

39

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): That moment with that candidate.

40

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Mike Malatesta: And what did you do about it.

41

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Well, I you know I kept fighting right I got him hired.

42

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Because that was one of the things I insisted, and I didn’t I don’t know if I should have told him I didn’t tell him about back and forth that we had to do behind the scenes.

43

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And you know he got a really great six figure sales job which he was one qualified for as the CEO of the company, said that he was.

44

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But what made me then pit was I said, well, I have to be able to help companies to change their workplace culture and they’re not going to hear it from that from a recruiter right they they don’t that’s not what they hired we hired you to find them people so.

45

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): that’s really what started my journey on focusing in specifically on on the Ai and not just on the recruitment aspect.

46

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Mike Malatesta: Okay, and before i’m going to go back to that, but.

47

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Mike Malatesta: First of all, I want to go, I want to go pat.

48

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Mike Malatesta: The back to the past, a little bit so tell tell me how your journey to become a recruiter.

49

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Mike Malatesta: started or came to be is it something you dreamed about as a little girl to become.

50

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Mike Malatesta: A recruiter or was it something that sort of happened along the way.

51

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Mike Malatesta: Or was it just an opportunity that presented itself at some point.

52

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You know it’s funny I think it’s just something i’ve always innately loved doing and so every job that i’ve ever had i’ve managed to finagle my way into having something to say about the way they hire.

53

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Whether they wanted me to or not.

54

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Mike Malatesta: Okay sure.

55

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): um and that it really hit me because I didn’t you know, sometimes take hindsight 2020 and think about things that happened in the past.

56

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And I look back on one of the very first real jobs that I could have gotten and it was working at a temp agency.

57

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): As their office manager and person that would you know handle all the recruiters.

58

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And I ended up getting the job, but I ended up getting it too late, they called me, maybe a week and a half after I had accepted a different job.

59

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And I always thought to myself, like wow I probably would How would my life has been different, had I taken that job and said I didn’t I ended up working in a law firm doing a bunch of other things.

60

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But in every job that i’ve ever had i’ve always been drawn to the way that companies recruit how they hire just that whole process and.

61

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I think part of it is just because I get bored really easily and I love being able to look at all the different ways that people like all the different jobs that are out there, it will sit and think about all the jobs that people do like how interesting, that is.

62

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Mike Malatesta: yeah it’s a mate well that’s so great, about being a recruiter or even working in a temp Agency but.

63

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Mike Malatesta: You have no idea as a normal person all of the different jobs that are that are out there, that people doing all the different things that people do it says, I worked in.

64

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Mike Malatesta: We provided waste services to manufacturers and I got to get inside a lot of plants and I get to see people doing all these different kinds of things.

65

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Mike Malatesta: That I never I mean people couldn’t imagine what we were doing but I couldn’t imagine what but all these different jobs that people were doing it was just really fascinating to me sorry to go off on that tangent but.

66

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But yeah I mean that’s that that’s I think is I think it’s something we should all have to do right, we should you know, instead of having like a doctor or a police officer come in for like career day.

67

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Schools, we should take kids and take them out to a factory take them out to a plant take them out to a car dealership you know, let them see people actually working what that looks like.

68

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Mike Malatesta: I agree, and we actually did have a program in milwaukee where we did that we took kids that were in eighth grade and we took them into manufacturing facilities to show them.

69

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Mike Malatesta: All the different jobs, not just on the floor, but you know all the office jobs, the sales jobs to see jobs, and it was funny because the kids are always very interested in what the CEO makes.

70

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Mike Malatesta: It was always a question that came up, it was never answered, but it always came up, so it was yeah it’s very interesting so um when you.

71

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Mike Malatesta: Were you know, had this I don’t know if tiffany is a realization when you were working this with this fella.

72

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Mike Malatesta: Did that how long did that take to manifest itself into you know starting a business to address this because that’s a big step.

73

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah you know.

74

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And it’s a little fuzzy for me great.

75

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I was working I was running my own recruiting agency at the time.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Okay, and what I wanted to do was focus in on.

77

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Specifically diversity recruitment, so I you know I talked to a lot of different companies, I had all these contacts and none of them.

78

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): really wanted to be able to bring me in as a diversity person because they said oh you just did recruiting right you can’t believe the diversity manager.

79

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And I just kept searching and I eventually got hired on with a large bank and I went in specifically to go work for a company, so I could see how they managed.

80

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Diversity in the workplace, because I just thought, what I can see from the outside it doesn’t look good.

81

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So I think I want to see what they’re doing internally, that is so different because they’ve got to be doing something right spending all this money on diversity initiatives and they’re starting to hire chief diversity officers.

82

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And when I found was it really was you know no different there wasn’t much happening there was just money being shuffled around.

83

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And it really made me realize that I could do it as a consultant and not be.

84

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Not not having an issue with it wouldn’t be like Oh, you have to have worked at apple on Facebook and all these other places, we can do.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah I see, so you basically you just change the label and because you already had.

86

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Mike Malatesta: The skill set and you already knew what you.

87

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Mike Malatesta: How you wanted to change things, or how you wanted to help people change things, but because you’re a recruiter or whatever they just like know your they would basically define you as.

88

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Mike Malatesta: Bad as opposed to so you change the label and all the sudden people are like What do you say Stacy what do we have to do.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): It really is it’s so interesting I mean that’s just it’s human nature and that’s what we’re literally fighting against right trying to change companies is.

90

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): stop taking people and putting them into these boxes and expecting them to stay there, because, first of all, the box you put them in isn’t even the right label to begin with.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So you know we spend so much of our time, fighting against first impressions fighting against the stereotypes that people label us with.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And a lot of times we don’t even realize that we’re doing that we’re having to do that, you know we can’t figure out like, why is it so hard for me to get promoted in this job well cuz Bob when he first saw you but that you belonged in maintenance, instead of in marketing.

93

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And so now, you have to spend all this time trying to maneuver your way through corporate bs to get what you should have been in the first place.

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Mike Malatesta: Right okay.

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Mike Malatesta: And what so when you were in the bank.

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Mike Malatesta: You saw that you know it wasn’t there was, you said money being passed around but it wasn’t actually working well, what did you conclude from that what were the reasons that.

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Mike Malatesta: You know if someone’s going to make an company’s going to make an investment, for example, and make the hires that you said they they did bring you in what what’s the what’s preventing what why doesn’t it happen, I guess.

98

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Because I think I don’t think that there was, I think the focus has shifted so in fairness right to to this company and two companies at that time.

99

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): In the last 10 years the understanding of diversity and inclusion that’s what it was back then, it was just diversity your diversity inclusion now we’re talking diversity equity inclusion belonging justice right so.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I think the idea back then was really that if we can help these associations and these groups that are focused on black people and women and LGBT Q professionals and the disabled right, you know individuals with with disabilities, if we can just help them then they’ll help themselves.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But it’s still you know we’ve realized that that’s not the case, because it’s like me working as a recruiter trying to help these individuals get hired.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I can help them get hired but then, what right the company structure is still the same the company structure hasn’t changed, so what companies were doing was a lot of external right here’s a check go fix it external it’s like no, you know physician heal thyself you need to look inside.

103

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): because the problem is actually you.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Not them.

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Mike Malatesta: Okay, I get it so we’ll write a check and you fix this problem for us and come back tell me when it’s all good that kind of thing instead of.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): That yeah.

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Mike Malatesta: You mentioned the law working for the law firm and I wanted to ask you and I forgot that I saw that you went you spend some time at fordham law school and I wanted to you’re not a lawyer, I don’t think, but you were you intending to be.

108

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Mike Malatesta: i’m always fascinated by people who have their MBA and are also lawyers and you know that kind of thing, so I thought that you can just leave that go.

109

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Well, you know it’s a it’s a.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): As I say, it’s an interesting story, but maybe some people won’t find it that interesting but.

111

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): it’s one of those things, and I think this is why I am such a am so interested in careers and career trajectories and what people do and how they get there, and the advice that you get or don’t get.

112

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Because when I was a kid I said I wanted to be a judge that was what I said I wanted.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): i’m not realizing that in order to be a judge in most cases, you have to kind of go to law school for it to become a lawyer and do all of these things right, I didn’t understand that process until I really had gotten into.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Maybe college and it was like wait what i’ve got to do what first so it totally changed what I wanted to do was, I had no intention of becoming a lawyer did not want to be.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The only reason I wanted to be a judge was because I wanted to change in justice right I hated the way sentences were being handed down ahead of the way that again people were being.

116

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): unfairly, you know, charged with crimes unfairly searched unfairly imprisoned.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right, all of these things and I thought well if i’m a judge, I can fix that well as I got older I realized Well, no, you can’t because you have to follow the rules.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And the judge, most of the time doesn’t actually have any leeway over the rules, especially if you’ve got these three strikes types, you know and so.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): When I realized that I was like.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I don’t want to be a judge, but then I was like well I spent all this time thinking to myself, well, I have to go to law school so now, what do I do so, I went to law school because I didn’t know what else to do.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But in all the work and all the things i’ve talked about with people I kept talking about how much I wanted to run a business i’ve always wanted to run my own business.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And it’s just interesting that nobody ever said well Stacy maybe you went want to go to Business School instead of law school like.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Nowhere did anyone say this, and this is also part of this idea that we get into these silos and we get very myopic.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right about what we can and can’t do because my world I worked as a paralegal for many, many years, so my world was filled with lawyers.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right that’s all they know so when I said, this is what i’m looking to do they were like yeah go to law school that’s great go to law school.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Had i’ve been surrounded by different people they probably would have said don’t go to law school that stupid go to Business School right for don’t spend money on a graduate degree at all right, I would have gotten different advice.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Okay, but that’s I think why it’s so important that we look at who are we surrounding ourselves with because the information and the perspectives and the vision that we have is molded by.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The Community that you happen to be in and if you’re stuck in one type of Community that’s all you’re going to see and that’s all you know you have no idea that there’s these other things happening on the other side.

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Mike Malatesta: makes that makes total sense, did you grow up did you grow up in in the northeast I noticed fordham was you went to fordham I don’t know if that was.

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Mike Malatesta: If you’re you’re in La now, I think.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah yeah so.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah so I you know trajectory I ended up in La i’ve actually now lived in La longer than i’ve lived anywhere else on the planet and that bothers me because.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): For the longest well I don’t know if I do today, but I would say, even as.

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As.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): As recently as a few years ago, I still considered myself in new yorker.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And so I just I don’t buy with the Los Angeles way of doing things.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): As you said, i’m very much upfront to tell it like it is you don’t get that a lot up here in Los Angeles that’s very much in New York way of doing things.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And I miss it I miss transparency, I miss authenticity I miss just this tell me the thing and let’s be done with it instead of all this back and forth nonsense, you know, so I actually went to junior high in high school in New York and then moved out here.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): right around the time that I dropped out of law school so but I was actually born in London so.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The first five years of my life was in London another 10 or so in New York, and then the rest out here.

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Mike Malatesta: And that’s that’s great.

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Mike Malatesta: Oh that’s cool did you did you move here, because your parents.

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Mike Malatesta: Had a job transfer did what what brought you to the States.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): um now my my parents just I don’t know the entire thing, but I always remember my parents talking about Maggie Thatcher when the goal.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So am I, my mom had a lot of family, like all of us here in the states so.

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Mike Malatesta: Okay, and also, I haven’t spent much time in La but it’s interesting what you say about the difference in.

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Mike Malatesta: approach I guess is what you were saying the way people approach things, so I think what if I was reading.

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Mike Malatesta: You right, you were basically saying that maybe in New York, you know where you stand with someone quicker and more accurately, perhaps, than maybe the way that people a lot of people in in La maybe choose to.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): For sure and it’s, it is a different approach, I think people out here have a and i’m being totally stereotypical I know.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Why not, and from what i’ve experienced straight, I think that people in Los Angeles, have a.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): less of a tolerance, they don’t like to like hurt anyone’s feelings they’d much rather put you off.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): and say yeah sure i’ll get to it i’ll look at it i’ll talk to you i’ll whatever right, rather than just say no i’m not interested that’s not for me it’s not my cup of tea I don’t want it.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): They just and it’s just a different different approach and so.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I think, for me, I i’ve had to temper my own brashness, so to speak, because I will tell you like it is and heartbeat and I realized that is a quick way to make people cry in Los Angeles so.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah you don’t need to be passing out tissues all day long right sorry.

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Mike Malatesta: Okay, so you started you kind of relabelled yourself started as a consultant when did when did rework work actually get off the ground itself was that did it start, as you just you and your use your consultancy or was it a transition or transformation from that to what you have now.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah it really was a transformation, you know I said I started off as the Gordon group, and it was just me and in 2016 changed the name to rework work, and it really was just out of that frustration of wanting to see change and realizing that we needed to rework everything about work.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And that’s how I came up with the name and I was, I was so shocked at the time and said no one’s using this.

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Mike Malatesta: This is yeah that URL is available that was surely good.

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Mike Malatesta: And we’re so.

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Mike Malatesta: I don’t know how did you I guess.

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Mike Malatesta: I guess first off how.

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Mike Malatesta: How did you target your first clients and what was the what was the message that got you in the door, because.

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Mike Malatesta: You mentioned that your experience with the Bank and i’m wondering Okay, where was your where your did you have experiences like that, when you came in as reward work where people would be like oh yeah we got a.

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Mike Malatesta: We got to do that it’s one of our you know, whatever and then you come in, and it would be.

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Mike Malatesta: or hard or was it just tough to get indoors.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): um it’s usually tough to get indoors I think what got me in the door was I do a lot of speaking, and so I would be a lot of conferences, you name the conference I would speak at it.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And what I find is that again because i’m pretty transparent I tell it like it is some people do like that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Which is why I realized that i’ve i’ve almost sort of cultivated my own client list based upon who can deal with me and who can’t right, the people who don’t want to hear it.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Who aren’t ready to hear the truth they’re not seeking me out anytime soon, because this is just you know how it is, and in fact I was at the sherm talent conference.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): In August of this year, and a woman came up to me afterwards and said, you know Stacy I gotta tell you I loved your session she’s like i’ve gone to so many conferences, this is the first time that somebody on stage just said, tell the damn truth.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Yes, I don’t understand why you haven’t gotten that message before, but if you haven’t glad you got it today because it’s what we need to do we need to be transparent about what is going on in our workplaces is you can’t fix what you can’t face yeah.

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Mike Malatesta: You definitely can’t fix what you can’t face and you can’t you.

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Mike Malatesta: can’t fix the problem to admit you have a problem or an issue, or whatever you want to call right well so i’m the.

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Mike Malatesta: Well, I guess let’s talk about.

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Mike Malatesta: How you actually fix help companies fix things so i’m wondering.

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Mike Malatesta: I think, and I mean i’ve owned a couple of companies Stacey so I have some experience here, maybe.

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Mike Malatesta: Maybe we’ve had a total of like 220 or 230 people working with us, and there was never a time.

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Mike Malatesta: That I felt like I was intentionally not.

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Mike Malatesta: You know, trying to hire the best workforce that it could and treat people, the best way that I could but.

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Mike Malatesta: That that usually most of the time manifested itself and not a ton of.

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Mike Malatesta: You know what people would consider diversity, so I feel like at the inclusion part.

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Mike Malatesta: of part of the inclusion part I was a kid but the diversity part probably not and i’m wondering.

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Mike Malatesta: How most companies feel when they bring you in like how did they do, they feel like i’m sure they don’t feel like they suck like the companies that you say to them, they probably do maybe they do, but how do they feel and how do you talk them through the initial sort of discussion.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah they don’t feel it right, and so this is where I do point these things out and i’ll be honest right with i’m sitting with a client i’m not going to tell them they suck.

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yeah.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): i’ll put it, a nice words.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You know, I think.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): that’s where I enjoy being able to be on a podcast or be able to you know speak at a conference, because I can say you suck right like I could say that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And then whether or not it’s actually true right you got to answer that question, you have to really ask yourself that, so I think part of it is.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right now, everyone is complaining right about.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The great resignation so everyone is leaving their jobs, and even that alone, if you those three words, the great resignation implies, it has this tinge of how dare you worker bee leave my company right it’s not complimentary.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): To the employees.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): it’s this This insidious kind of you know.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): negative thing and so you’ve got to ask yourself if you right now are having trouble.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): hiring there’s a reason because you know who isn’t having trouble hiring netflix.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You know who isn’t having trouble hiring Google and it’s not because there are big companies right it’s because they have done, certain things that are needed to make themselves a desired place to work so.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Facts are facts either people want to work for you or they don’t and if you have a problem, hiring right now it’s because there is something inherently wrong with your company right.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And that’s I mean I can’t you people don’t want to say, well, no that’s not true and.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But let’s bring it down to brass tacks and let’s be real about it great if your company was a great place to work for you would not have trouble hiring people regardless of industry.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Regardless of tenure, regardless of any of those things which means if you’re saying, well, we can’t pay enough okay so, then you have a wage issue right, which means you’re not paying your workers enough now granted.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You might not be set up in a way to be able to pay at the highest rates, but again.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): that’s something you then have to compensate for what are you willing to compensate with right, what are you willing to offer in lieu of wages.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): What type of flexibility, are you willing to give what type of environment, are you offering you can’t be a workplace that pays people poorly and treats them poorly.

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Mike Malatesta: Right.

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Mike Malatesta: bad cop, he yeah.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You can’t have both so any want to aspire to be a company that pays people what the job is worth not what the job will accept rate.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): What the job is worth to the company, so that means, regardless of where people are because now we’re hearing people say, well, I can hire from anywhere i’m going to hire from a lower.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Geographic region right place, that has a lower cost of living, so I can pay them less know you pay them what the job is worth to your company, regardless of where they work.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right that’s what makes you an employer of choice that shows that you actually give a crap about your employees yeah and that you value the contribution they are making to your company.

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Mike Malatesta: That was really interesting what you said about the great resignation I hadn’t thought about it that way.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You.

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Mike Malatesta: But as you were explaining it, I thought to myself oh yeah Okay, so how many people do I run into who you know blame.

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Mike Malatesta: Why they can’t find people on millennials work ethic, for example, or they say they have all kinds of reasons why they’re not able to get the people they want or the people they need.

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Mike Malatesta: But I I hardly hear anybody say you know what.

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Mike Malatesta: it’s my fault it’s my fault that i’m not able to get the right people here it’s my fault that I know we have all these people leaving it’s my fault that you know.

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Mike Malatesta: We can’t attract the talent, we needed sky so i’m glad you said that because I didn’t I didn’t think of the great resignation as bad, but it kind of is kind of it’s kind of that same exact thing.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right there’s no ownership right it’s constant again it’s the it’s outside right it’s back to what I said earlier about looking externally want to blame everything else under the sun, other than the actual.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Rather than lay the blame where it needs to go right which is on your own practices policies and procedures.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah and it’s.

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Mike Malatesta: You know, go ahead.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Well, no i’m just gonna you know just reiterate the point that it’s you know if you look at your competitors, there are competitors in your industry that aren’t struggling.

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Right.

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Mike Malatesta: And I think what I heard you say, too, is that your work is not just about.

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Mike Malatesta: helping people attract you know.

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Mike Malatesta: more diverse ethnicities to their to their business it’s about really looking at the whole business of what you know what brings people here what keeps them here what makes them go away it’s a lot more than just making.

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Mike Malatesta: You know these the right the certain types of hires it’s a so you take like a holistic approach to this, to help them really understand okay.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah definitely because it’s not about hiring you know, three black people and to gaze.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And and one person in wheelchair right like that’s not.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): that’s not what we’re doing we’re not going grocery shopping right for dimensions of diversity.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But, as also understanding that if women, for example in your company are having a really hard time getting promoted.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The interesting part of that is that it’s not just the women, there are also men who are having a hard time getting promoted so if you fix it for the women, you will also fix it for the men right.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So, once you start looking at these.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): These different policies these different practices in the company will you fix it one time you fix it for everyone now, when we do these assessments and we do.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Employee surveys and we asked what is it like to work here yeah you might get 80% of women who say it’s really hard i’m getting sexually harassed i’m being bullied right i’m dealing with all of these issues, but what’s also interesting is, you will see 50% of men say the same thing.

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Mike Malatesta: Oh yeah really okay.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So fix it period right it’s not about fixing it for women are fixing it for men it’s just fix it for the love of God fix it.

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Mike Malatesta: How many If so, you mentioned netflix and Google and then there’s you know others are you said compare yourself to the leaders, and you know you can see kind of where you are versus where where they are, but how many in your experience.

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Mike Malatesta: How many companies percentage of companies are sort of getting it right these days versus ones that still have a long way to a long way to go.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah it’s a hard question to answer, and I would you know it’s also, sad to say, not that many um because.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And so I struggle with this, because I don’t want to say that this work is hard.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And you know I talked to my team and they’re like yeah but Stacy the work is hard right, this is what makes it difficult i’m like no.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So much of the work is hard it’s that we are so stuck in our ways of doing things a certain way, that what is hard, because actually just changing.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): or even being open to change the work itself the things we need to do, are not difficult because when I say that the work is ongoing right what people here is.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The work is ongoing it never ends it’s so laborious it’s so difficult but it’s work, so what job, have you ever been in where you have a sales goal and we say we want to.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): sell 1000 widgets and you sell 1000 widgets and you ring the bell and go great job we sold 1000 widgets let’s all close up shop and go home.

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Mike Malatesta: Right right right right or we reach that goal, so next year i’m only going to ask you for 900.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right it’s on it’s always ongoing everything we do in work is ongoing, so I don’t know why, when we come to diversity equity and inclusion we somehow make it seem like it’s this arduous extra thing that is so hard no it’s the same of everything else that we do in the workplace.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So it’s really about a perspective shift.

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yeah okay.

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Mike Malatesta: And this organization that you’re certified through I know you said shrum I had is that right as HR m is.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): it’s a yeah it’s term it’s human resource now.

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Mike Malatesta: yeah sure.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I know.

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Mike Malatesta: I was thinking to myself there’s got to be sorry but there’s gotta be a better acronym because even the words don’t.

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Mike Malatesta: Anyway, I don’t know where the H comes from, but.

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Mike Malatesta: What can you tell me more about that because i’m not familiar with it, but it sounds like a big deal.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah so just now, the Society for human resource management is i’ve done say, probably, but I believe it is the largest human resource association in the world.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And so they have.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Anyone who’s an HR knows sharp so they are.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Either members or they’re certified or they’re attending events or I don’t know what they’re doing but they’re there they’re noticing charm and so.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): They have I don’t even know I don’t know how many chapters, but they’ve got tons around the country, and even around the world and their goal really is, is to provide resources for human resource professionals in companies, so they do a lot of conferences and.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): They also offer certifications in inclusive workplace culture which I have and then also the sherm senior senior certified professional certification.

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Mike Malatesta: everything’s a mouthful with that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Is such a minute and it’s really just I mean it’s learning and looking at what it is what it takes right to run a company.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And just looking at all the different functions and seeing where HR is embedded in there, because a lot of times people think about HR they just think they’re the person that does your you know your benefits.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And if you get in trouble rate their their compliance are going to come tell you what you did wrong and that’s pretty much it but really HR you know they’re managing.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The human capital right, the biggest resource that a company has are it’s humans, and it is hrs job to not only manage that, but to advise the senior leaders and ensure that they are not liability to the company.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): that’s one of my big things I say look, you all know, a an individual in your company, right now, a manager who you would not want to work with right and yet that person is still in your company why they’re willing.

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Mike Malatesta: To go in charge of other people.

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Mike Malatesta: Not even.

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Mike Malatesta: I wouldn’t want to work for that person, but i’m but i’m still putting people in front of that person to work with.

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Mike Malatesta: Right and resolve.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And then, when a lawsuit.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You know people say oh yeah I knew it was only a matter of time before he did something yeah Why is he still there.

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Right.

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Mike Malatesta: So when you take an engagement, do you would you will you take engagements where you’re only working with HR Stacy or do you require.

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Mike Malatesta: You know the whole sort of the from the CEO President to be involved when you when you come in and um well way to your answer before I tell you why i’m asking the question because she’ll probably say why.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): i’m you know it depends, I used to be a stickler and I would say i’m not coming in and just doing a one workshop, but what I realized, is that you have to meet people where they are.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And some people, they are not ready for the whole kit and caboodle.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): They are barely ready and i’ll use the example of a prospective client I spoke to who wanted me to come in and do a lot of education for all of their employees.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Around unconscious bias and I said okay well that’s fine and I went through some of the things that we talked about but because they were a Christian organization.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I knew there was going to be an issue with LGBT Q right, so I specifically asked him I said and what is your stance right on LGBT Q professionals in the workplace.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And it was kind of it was kind of funny because you could tell she had not thought about it, and she literally stopped and said.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Oh well, can’t you just skip that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): No, no.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): No, I cannot.

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yeah.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And so.

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Mike Malatesta: Many tissues here but.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right, so you know I realized in that moment that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): This these individuals.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): they’re going to need a lot more education, yes, we might do an unconscious bias session for them and then we’re going to need to do a second and a third, and a fourth right and we do these ongoing and we keep introducing concepts.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And then, but that’s an organization, where we would need to have a conversation with your leaders, we would need to know what are your values, what do you stand for what are you willing to accept or not accept because if we’re going to be doing these education sessions.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You know I don’t want you telling me oh you can’t talk about this particular thing and think.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): In order for me to do my job, we have to talk about that, so do you want me to do my job or not right so it’s just.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Having those conversations and realizing that some people can’t do the whole big thing right now, they just need.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Some of them just need a real session, where we can sit down and start talking about Do you understand.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): What diversity equity and inclusion is let’s have a conversation about That and that alone is enough for some people like that’s going to last them a few months, like that’s gonna blow their mind, they have to go away and think about it.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So, but in other instances we do we prefer to start with an assessment we’d like to do a organization wide survey that goes out to the entire company.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And so that we can get feedback from everyone and that way we’re able to get data and we’ll have companies say, well, you can just take our data we did a survey already.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I don’t want your data, I mean I do want data, but I don’t want it in this way because.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You are a company, where, in many cases, people don’t trust you so when they answered your survey they didn’t answer honestly.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): or they chose not to answer at all, so not only do we have missing information that we have incomplete or inaccurate information, but when we come in and do a survey they know it’s external so they’re honest and boy, are they honest yeah.

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Mike Malatesta: that’s a good point because you oftentimes when you do a survey the people who are happy opt in and the people who are unhappy opt out, and so you get your results back you know, like you can delude yourself right like wow look at how great.

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Mike Malatesta: Exact we are yeah we only had 37% participation, but I can’t make people do it, you know that kind of it’s just uh yeah okay.

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Mike Malatesta: I thought um I don’t know if I asked the right question before saw go back at it, I think it was an unfair question to ask you what percentage of.

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Mike Malatesta: Companies you know, in your experience or get it versus don’t I guess what i’m as I was thinking more the this this difference between conscious and unconscious bias.

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Mike Malatesta: How maybe that’s a better question because I wonder to my myself like I gave you my own experience I don’t.

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Mike Malatesta: You know I.

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Mike Malatesta: unconscious bias by by its nature, is something you’re not you may not be aware of it’s just sort of hiding right in front of you.

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Mike Malatesta: But conscious bias is intentional at least that’s how I hear it, so how i’m curious how often you run it you get into a situation with a company and they’re either it’s it’s about way more than unconscious bias and what do you do about it.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Honestly, we haven’t had to deal with that too much because.

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Mike Malatesta: Okay.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): As you said, when you are dealing with conscious bias you’re talking discrimination right yeah you’re talking actionable lawsuits so the times that it has come up for us, I immediately refer them to an attorney I have.

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Mike Malatesta: Soon, as you say.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah I have a couple of friends and I say listen, you need to talk to this company that is not what we do.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And i’m not trying to repair your reputation when you were in the middle of you know, because what they’ll say is well, can you come in and do unconscious bias education.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Because we’ve got this issue going on, no, you need to fix the issue that’s a huge issue and me coming in and doing this isn’t going to smooth it over for you right, you have to actually take care with that and then, once that’s taken care of we can we can do some additional work.

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Mike Malatesta: How did you decide to write your book.

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Mike Malatesta: And what was the process like for you i’m always interested in in the author’s journey.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah um gosh I decided to write the book I had wanted to write one for quite a while and I had been looking for a publisher.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But I refused, you know i’m all about efficiency and I think I don’t want to write the book until I have a publisher because then i’ll spend all this time with this work sitting here and I will do anything with it.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So I did find a publisher and so, then I got to writing and I basically spent.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): What year are we in I guess it was 2019 writing because it published in 20.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): No i’m confused I don’t even know what you’re wearing.

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Mike Malatesta: Now, yes, welcome.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Thank you pandemic i’m.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Tony Tony I spent all of the summer of 2020 writing this book.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And it was an interesting time to be writing about this.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And it really the goal was just to.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): To bring awareness, to the conversation that needs to be had and to try to get rid of some of those excuses that we hear people talking about.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And just get them doing some pre work, you know, so that by the time I get to them, I don’t have to keep repeating myself.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): There are concepts that they understand, and you know, and this work, it has to be.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): consistently practiced so you know it’s great that you read a book, I want you to read the book, I also want you to watch the course on unconscious bias, I want you to do some learning is one of the reasons that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You mentioned in the introduction, where where else can they find actually just created the rework work communities, if you go to we work work calm.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): We are putting resources in there, because this is an ongoing thing right there’s no point listening to this podcast and then going oh that was interesting and going back to work.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): What do you do next right you’re going to make a commitment to actually have a conversation with others in your workplace and start to see what kind of a difference that you can make i’m going to go do some more reading.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Are you going to learn, are you going to start practicing inclusive behavior.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And so, a lot of these things we’re trying to put a lot of free resources into the space obviously there will be some paid resources but.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Just if we can get people thinking talking and realizing that how you show up you know it goes back to your question about whether or not you, you don’t think that you intentionally exclude people.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right, but the thing I tell people all the time is we intentionally exclude people all the time, the thing is, we don’t realize it right, because what we’re doing is we are intentionally, including.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): A certain subset of people and every time you decide to include one person over somebody else you have the opposite of that right is that you have decided to exclude that person, but we don’t think about it like that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): We only think about it, like well, of course, I took john and David with me to lunch because they’re my friends we’ve been friends, for you know years why wouldn’t I take them to lunch yeah but you left Harry behind.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Why did you decide to leave Harry we didn’t assign yeah you did right you made an intentional choice to only take these two people with.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): It so when we start looking at again I can think about a perspective change and we start flipping things around and looking at the other side of things, we realize that, yes, our actions have consequences.

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Mike Malatesta: And that I just got the email about that today so i’m i’m this Community, so people go to your website to sign up for for to be a part of the Community is that what happens.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Yes, I don’t know if we have the link up on the Community just yet, I think we put it out to all the people who’ve been subscribers to our newsletter and have been so you get first access to it, but it will be up shortly, probably in the next couple of days.

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Mike Malatesta: Okay, and I like your approach is very interesting to for your on your book writing to get a publisher first, because you didn’t want to put if I.

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Mike Malatesta: In between the lines, I think what I heard on the efficiency thing was I don’t want to write a book that a publisher then says yeah I wish you had written, this is that what went into your thinking.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Definitely.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And i’m always about it’s.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): it’s one of the things about me I don’t like wasted energy so anytime I can make something quicker faster shorter easier, I will.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I think it’s one of the reasons that people like working with us, we work workers, because that is what we look at we look at every company individually and we look at Okay, what have you got going on and then how can we do this quicker faster make it better.

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Mike Malatesta: And how do you on a personal level, how do you maintain and and grow and replenish your energy what.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I have a good network of friends and that network is not that diverse.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): It is one of those things i’ve been working on, but I mean I take that back it ebbs and flows, I think I have a pretty good group.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): of individuals, I will say, most of them are women.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): That when i’m really struggling or I need a resource or i’m just like I just can’t do it today.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): They remind me that, yes, you can yes, you will go get it done.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So.

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Mike Malatesta: Okay, fair enough and I, I want to learn a little bit more about the linkedin learning that you do because i’m pretty active on linkedin but I.

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Mike Malatesta: don’t think i’ve ever done a linkedin learning and i’ll bet there’s a lot of people who, who never had but you’ve reached over a million people during your linkedin learning how did that get get started, what it, what is it and how can people.

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Mike Malatesta: do that with you as well.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Yes, so I believe the main website is just linkedin.com slash learning.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And if you have a pro subscription to linkedin you actually have access to it.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And they have a ton I don’t know if any of you ever used to use lynda.com and so linkedin bought lynda.com and then expanded on the library so and then, of course, because Microsoft now owns linkedin.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): they’ve now thrown in there so many resources in there, so what I like about the learning platform is.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): there’s so many things to learn in there, you know it’s like Of course there are you to me.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): There are ton of you know, and especially, for, if you look you’re looking to excel in your job you’re looking to grow and enhance your skills, there are so many things that can help with that, so the course.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I have actually have four courses on the platform one is, of course, on unconscious bias and then, I have one on how to write a resume and so those are actually my two most.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Top performing courses.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And the unconscious bias course is actually the number one most viewed course for all of 2021.

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Mike Malatesta: wow congratulations.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah they just announced that a couple of days ago so that’s really exciting to see that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The entire year and i’m one course most of us, which just goes to show that there’s a lot of focus on diversity equity inclusion right now so and it’s they’ve offered it for free that’s The other thing we’re doing is for the next few weeks.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The unconscious bias course is available for free, and it is in different languages, I think it’s in I want to say, which again is Spanish Mandarin in Japanese.

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Mike Malatesta: linkedin so you go to linkedin COM slash learning and then you just type in your name.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You can type in my name, you can type in unconscious bias, there are just.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): ton of resources, I think it’s a really great opportunity and I tell people all the time, like if you have a library card for many people it’s free because a lot of libraries actually have access to to the learning.

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Mike Malatesta: Oh.

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Mike Malatesta: You think a good tip.

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yeah.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Like login use your library card.

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Mike Malatesta: Okay yeah and this course, on how to write a resume that kind of I kind of.

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Mike Malatesta: wasn’t expecting that so how much different is it to write a resume now than before, what are people missing about writing a resume or how different do resumes need to be to get noticed.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah the resume course you know there’s a ton of information in there and it goes from not just how to write the resume but also there’s aspects of how to get your resume noticed, and so I think that’s probably why it’s also been pretty popular is that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): You don’t have to watch the whole thing right, you can just watch the segment our people send me emails and say I don’t know how to write an objective.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Okay, go look at the section on how to write an objective, it will walk through what to do, and I think that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): In, especially now it’s only people leaving their jobs and with there’s a lot of people who haven’t had to look for a job in a long time, you know people have gotten for furloughed during the pandemic and then eventually let go it’s also the reason that.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So many people have started businesses.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Because they’ve just said, you know what when I go back to work i’m going to do my own thing.

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Mike Malatesta: So this might be out of left field but but, on the same resume thing a couple weeks ago there was a story in The Wall Street Journal about some of the challenges, people are facing with resumes both the applicants and the.

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Mike Malatesta: Companies because so many of the resumes now go through these computer bots are you know they go through software systems that sort of weed out.

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Mike Malatesta: And if your resume doesn’t hit the exact right points you get weeded out you don’t even get a look like the machine takes you out it’s kind of.

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Mike Malatesta: way well and even a little bit at what’s been your experience with.

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Mike Malatesta: With that and how do you and does that impact the the Di work or does it impact the I you know progress.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I mean, I think it does, to an extent right is one of the reasons when linkedin first rolled out, if you remember that back in like 2004 2005.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): People of color didn’t like to put their their photo up like that was a new thing like having this this online system where now you have photos and it’s like what.

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Stacey Gordon (She/Her): All these years we’ve been told you don’t put a photo on a resume Why would I now go to linkedin and put my photo up so people can see right now of course it’s it’s weird if you don’t have a photo on there.

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Mike Malatesta: you’re there, or if you don’t have a photo you’re.

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Right.

405

00:56:21.900 –> 00:56:25.020

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And so it linkedin actually changed that.

406

00:56:26.940 –> 00:56:38.130

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): That practice, and I think that the reason that there was a hesitancy for people of color to put their photo up was because they said well it’s going to be so easy now i’m going to be discriminated against.

407

00:56:38.670 –> 00:56:47.040

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And so I always put my photo up because I said look i’m black i’d rather you know upfront and reject me out of hand and waste my time because my efficiency again.

408

00:56:47.760 –> 00:56:55.590

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I don’t want you to waste my time and I show up and then you realize i’m black and you don’t hire me i’d rather you just cut me up front, so I think that.

409

00:56:56.580 –> 00:57:11.310

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): There isn’t the issue with resumes now because the advice I give people, and this is advice I gave 10 years ago I still give today, and I think it’s even more true today because of these systems is.

410

00:57:12.330 –> 00:57:16.620

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): If you’re going to apply to a job you then need to follow it up.

411

00:57:17.490 –> 00:57:28.140

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And I get it you can’t do this for every single job because you just don’t have enough time but you need to pick your top five your top 10 places that you absolutely want to work and everything in your power.

412

00:57:28.650 –> 00:57:34.680

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): To find the hiring manager find the HR person by recruiter find a friend right.

413

00:57:35.040 –> 00:57:44.910

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah and get your resume to that person yes you’d have to apply online because they require, but nothing stops you from also right in addition to.

414

00:57:45.330 –> 00:57:56.700

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Sending a resume to the hiring manager sending your resume to the recruiter emailing your resume mailing it in if you have to hate like these are some of the overlook things that people have forgotten about they don’t do anymore.

415

00:57:57.870 –> 00:58:00.870

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And also two quick stories, then I will move on right so.

416

00:58:01.890 –> 00:58:07.620

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): One job that I got and I get it, this was back in the day, but this i’m mailed my resume to.

417

00:58:08.880 –> 00:58:14.760

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): To the job, right to the person who would have to hire you at least we have to give up, and that was why I got the job.

418

00:58:15.450 –> 00:58:23.970

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Well, this way I got the interview I can’t say it’s why I got the job, but he told me later he said, your resume showed up on my desk in an envelope.

419

00:58:24.360 –> 00:58:36.240

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): The same day that somebody putting a letter of resignation on my desk so I had your resume and a letter of resignation, I was one of the first people to be interviewed now I didn’t guarantee me the job.

420

00:58:36.720 –> 00:58:42.840

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): But at least it guaranteed me an interview right hand I only applied online, and when I probably would have gotten the.

421

00:58:44.040 –> 00:58:53.160

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): So sometimes we’ve got to be creative about how we’re going to get up get the get eyeballs on the resume and the second example of that is.

422

00:58:53.760 –> 00:59:00.150

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): When I first moved out here, I wanted to work at Mattel and same thing I had to apply online, so I applied online.

423

00:59:00.750 –> 00:59:09.240

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): didn’t hear anything I called a couple of recruiters didn’t hear anything and because the industry’s law and.

424

00:59:09.930 –> 00:59:14.310

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): what’s the other one financial services, those are companies that to this day, still have fax machines.

425

00:59:14.940 –> 00:59:32.700

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): and other people listening to me going what fax machine yeah I know they still have them, though they still use them, and so I did I dug and I found the fax number to the head of the Department of the law firm not law from the law department in Mattel.

426

00:59:33.750 –> 00:59:44.460

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And I faxed my resume and the head of the department got my resume off the fax machine call down to HR and said why haven’t interviewed this person.

427

00:59:46.770 –> 00:59:48.660

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Because I did apply.

428

00:59:48.960 –> 00:59:49.140

Mike Malatesta: Right.

429

00:59:49.170 –> 01:00:02.460

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): I was in their system but they’re 80 s system, we did me out and I couldn’t get in front of anybody it’s only because I faxed it she got in her hand and looked at it and she called them and shoot them out, so I can’t believe you have an interview this person.

430

01:00:03.720 –> 01:00:07.830

Mike Malatesta: That is so thank you for sharing those stories it’s because it’s such wonderful advice one.

431

01:00:08.550 –> 01:00:18.360

Mike Malatesta: You know just because there’s a system that you have to go through electronic system or doesn’t mean that’s the only system that there is so don’t tell don’t say they didn’t get back to me.

432

01:00:19.080 –> 01:00:27.450

Mike Malatesta: right if you haven’t tried these other avenues in to this is very novel it’s going to this is very novel it’s very 2021 are you ready.

433

01:00:28.650 –> 01:00:43.860

Mike Malatesta: People don’t get mail at work anymore, and when you may get something address to them that gets put on their desk they’re like what I got to open that up right I got open that up and see what that is yeah i’m.

434

01:00:43.950 –> 01:00:45.540

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): fedex that if you have to I mean.

435

01:00:45.720 –> 01:00:46.290

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Like I said.

436

01:00:46.560 –> 01:00:50.130

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): you’re going to do that for every job absolutely not, but if you have your top five.

437

01:00:50.160 –> 01:00:54.150

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): When you want off the place you absolutely want to work for go for it.

438

01:00:55.230 –> 01:00:57.510

Mike Malatesta: So Stacy last question here what what.

439

01:00:59.910 –> 01:01:00.960

Mike Malatesta: What are you shooting for.

440

01:01:02.220 –> 01:01:17.220

Mike Malatesta: And I so you’ve reached a million people on the with linkedin learning or do you have a goal of the number of companies, you want to help transform or the number of people’s lives that you want to help improve or do or.

441

01:01:18.120 –> 01:01:32.520

Mike Malatesta: And if you don’t that’s fine i’m just curious how you’re measuring yourself, because, as someone who’s you know sort of as straight talk as as you are and energy efficient and all those things I feel like there’s probably something there.

442

01:01:33.870 –> 01:01:54.420

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): yeah i’m actually working on again efficiency right so i’m working on how can I tap into and help more leaders on a one to one basis, but that will be effective and so i’m struggling actually with the idea and I guess we’re all struggle with this right in person versus online.

443

01:01:55.710 –> 01:02:11.130

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And we’re in the training world it’s like asynchronous versus live, and you know everyone likes to say well asynchronous training doesn’t work because somebody can just go online, they can click play, and then they can be doing something else and they’re not paying attention.

444

01:02:12.600 –> 01:02:23.820

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): And the thing is that live is expensive right because you can only really tap into so many people at a time and so it’s arduous and it takes longer.

445

01:02:24.090 –> 01:02:25.620

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): it’s not like session either.

446

01:02:25.740 –> 01:02:38.610

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Right so like somewhere between completely asynchronous and completely live is where I am working on developing content and so that’s what i’ve actually been doing is I have created a series.

447

01:02:39.030 –> 01:02:49.650

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): For leaders, called the why of the Ai and it’s a mix it’s a hybrid of really sort of online learning for leaders.

448

01:02:50.370 –> 01:03:07.080

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): As well as some live sessions that are going to help transform transform them, so my goal is to see if I can get 1000 leaders through that training by the end of 2022 so we’ll see.

449

01:03:08.040 –> 01:03:09.450

Mike Malatesta: The end of 2022 okay.

450

01:03:09.840 –> 01:03:10.200

cool.

451

01:03:11.280 –> 01:03:23.790

Mike Malatesta: yeah that’s fantastic well Stacy just been so much fun getting to know you I do want to thank you for coming on the podcast thanks for sharing your stories thanks for the work that you’re doing and the difference that you’re making.

452

01:03:24.870 –> 01:03:36.240

Mike Malatesta: I mentioned at the beginning, some ways to get in touch with you is there, another way that you prefer people to connect with you or find out more about what you and your company do, or what, what do you want people to do.

453

01:03:37.080 –> 01:03:42.420

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): easiest way is to go to rework work calm or to follow me on my linkedin.

454

01:03:43.410 –> 01:03:52.980

Mike Malatesta: Okay perfect that’s how I connected with us on linkedin good advice, but thank you so much for being on the show and and yeah it’s been a pleasure.

455

01:03:53.700 –> 01:03:54.390

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Thank you.

456

01:03:57.900 –> 01:03:58.350

Mike Malatesta: All right.

457

01:03:59.400 –> 01:04:02.370

Mike Malatesta: Okay, I hope that was Okay, for you to win all right.

458

01:04:02.910 –> 01:04:04.020

Mike Malatesta: yeah yeah.

459

01:04:04.170 –> 01:04:07.230

Mike Malatesta: You got a great smile you’re always laughing that’s good I like it.

460

01:04:07.290 –> 01:04:10.440

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): Thank you yeah I mean I hate I don’t laugh through this workout cry.

461

01:04:12.960 –> 01:04:26.250

Mike Malatesta: I get it, I definitely get it definitely got it well um I will let you know when the episode drops it’ll be a little while before it does and we send a couple social.

462

01:04:26.820 –> 01:04:40.770

Mike Malatesta: clips that you can you’ll be able to easily share as well if you’d like to and, if I can ever be helpful to you or a resource to you or anything i’d be i’d be very happy to to do that.

463

01:04:41.520 –> 01:04:46.260

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): awesome Thank you so much, I really appreciate being invited and for the conversation.

464

01:04:47.160 –> 01:04:49.380

Mike Malatesta: Alright appreciate it have a great evening.

465

01:04:49.830 –> 01:04:50.520

Stacey Gordon (She/Her): thanks you too.

466

01:04:50.550 –> 01:04:52.200

Mike Malatesta: Okay bye bye bye.

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